Yup. Its a shame to see good devs go under and then those who keep going not recieve the monetary support it should. Not many games on patreon are going to reach thousands of dollars a month and worse that they could be put under review just off an accusation which could terrify a new dev or those who are relying on the site to raise funds. As much as I appreciate this site the games I really enjoy I pledge to even if its not much because thats how they keep going. I mean some devs need to rethink their tiers though.
Patreon Is Hardening Their 'Adult Content' Guidelines. Discussion Thread
- Thread starter OhWee
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I agree with that. The goal should be quantity of pledges instead of quality. If you're developing an average length story over the course of a year you can't really expect them to be willing to shell out AAA game level money. 2 or 3 dollars a month would translate to 24 - 36 dollars in the year it takes you to develop. That is a reasonable ask. Of course, if they want to have a higher tier for truly dedicated fans, more power to them, but the full game should be available for the 2 or 3 dollar level with special rewards for people who really wanna donate.
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I doubt indie would die. Nothing can kill indie and in that case Patreon would still exist as well as other sites. It's not even about quality, but restriction monthly-release system has. You can't release adult game with rich narration and without erotic content for many months as patrons will attack you. With monthly releases people are obsessed about erotic content as they require gratification so ambitious games can't really make it. With normal system, developer can produce whatever and still make it if game has quality at the end. You can develop a game for a year without any erotic scene if it fits your idea. BB is the greatest example of how terrible this system can be. If dev is trying to create a sandbox, he has to create shit ton of non erotic content but his resources are limited and people demands sex scenes every update which removes simulation elements from it as it starts to take it into focus. I'm grateful for number of devs we have but for me monthly system is cancerous and restrictive.
If I'm being honest though, that isn't really the same category. Even if the game ends in a graphic and debaucherous way. It would be like all those japanese games that add porn in later. To be perfectly clear, I'm not saying that no one should make a game like that, but that they shouldn't be advertising themselves as an erotic game developer. They should just be a game developer with adult content. I imagine their games would be more like Life is Strange or something, where there are adult themes, and maybe even a graphic scene or two. Patreon could absolutely still be used for such a game, with each release being episodic and having a climax that leaves you wanting more. People who are developing sex games simply need to be better at it. They need to write their own dramatic or even comedic stories and have the sex serve that story.
I've enjoyed a few of the Harem type games, BB, MotH, Sisterly Lust, View of Family for a little while, Sisterly Lust and View of Family are the only ones I'm still into, because both have relatively good writing. That said, I think they are lower quality games as they will always be limited by the need to cram sex into it to keep people interested. With a good story the sex won't be something you force. My own story only has one full day written, it's about 45 minutes of content, and it ends in two consecutive sexual content scenes. Both of them make sense, I'm not shoehorning a character in to add sex, I'm simply writing a story about two people and their growing forbidden romance.
I think the problem most devs have with writing these stories with believable and unforced sex is the fact that 90% of their female characters are dead fish. They don't have any sexual will of their own. Each of them has to be broken down. So any sex that goes on before the climax where the MC finally earns it seems forced or designed to tease them. If more games had proactive female characters there would be more sex in their stories naturally because sex isn't a prize, its a normal part of a healthy relationship. Just imagine how much better a game like DMD would be if the daughter wasn't as sexually blind as an amoeba.
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Comparison with Japanese games is on point to some degree. And you're right that in such a case it's not an adult game as they are just VNs. Even such a giant brands like Fate/Stay Night have erotic content but it's because sexuality is a part of their culture and it doesn't only belong to porn. I would love such a games in our market but I doubt it's doable. I wasn't talking about games like that but extremally ambitious projects that require a lot of build up. If you wish to create believable simulation it requires a lot of non-erotic content. If your development time takes 4 years and 2 years would take creation of non-erotic content it would still be an erotic game at the end. But problem with Patreon is that it requires you to push things much faster and cut off everything else. Highly technical games like Sengoku Rance can't exist in such a model as technical aspects would take so long people would attack it for lack of content because they're not focused on a game as a complete product. We have games like A Wife And Mother that would be objectively much better than any top tier games when finished but people moan about lack of erotic content. If someone is addicted to details and wish to have an option to look at many different objects ingame he can't do it cuz it would take a couple of months to render wardrobes and other things while people would attack him. My whole issue is probably due to the fact we don't have real market with "AAA" erotic games that can achieve such a things but I partly blame Patreon model for that. Believable writing is completely different issue and you're 100% right about that. In that case I think our main issue is our harem approach that every woman is your target. In Japan that would be silly as you can't create any romantic interaction with harem MC by definition as he wish to fuck everyone. I very much prefer routes in Japanese games. Another thing is domination of incest and how destructive for whole genre its popularity has been. Most of the times new games are copy-paste with quick transition to fucking while believable story in that setting would require a tons of build up and really good writing. All in all our market has a lot of issues and some changes would be welcome
I get what you're saying. But what about more of a kickstarter model, where the final project is released at the end and there aren't monthly updates? I mean, I totally agree we need a AAA platform in the west, we need to stop treating sex like it's forbidden. People wonder why there's so much toxic masculinity in the world and yet they keep trying to teach us that sex is taboo. It's no wonder that combined with the much more negative view of female sexuality men become such monsters. I think if we started a more open and honest sexual culture we could address a lot more of our issues.
I totally get what you're saying about incest. I've said it before, but I'm a huge siscon, it's the reason I play adult games. The copy paste stories are exactly why I'm working on my own. I really hope to show my characters actually grow into their relationship in a more believable fashion. As terrible as the female characters are, I feel like the most realistic incest progression I've seen in a game is DMD, and that one is horrible with it's naive daughter who doesn't even question the perverted way her father handles her. I guess there's also Dual Family, but that game is so depressing that I don't know whether to treat it like a solution. I do like the progression though, between the father and daughter especially, and the way the son deals with his issues in dreams.
I get what you mean about much larger projects though. I think the thing that comes to mind for me as something I think had potential that is ruined by the model is Vikings Daughter. A few fetch quests is all it takes to start fucking her and calling her a slut. That project could be so much more than it is. I wonder if someone couldn't do something more along the lines of Beyond Skyrim or Enderal, use an existing platform to create a worthwhile adult gaming experience. With OSA and OSex there's already a pretty good framework available to use for sex. All that needs to happen is for a group to do it.
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Kickstarter for adult games would be great as long as developers would be able to really create things they promised. But such a platform won't exist without mentioned paypal sadly. For me that would be optimal to have both Patreon and such a site so devs and players could choose. Patreon could also introduce pledge per year or half of the year system so devs could much easier fund slower projects that are updated in a slower pace. Pledge per update is fine but indicates that updates are inconsistent and allows dev to have no time-limit. Large Japanese-like industry for western games would be great but it's a song of a future. AAA adult game would be incredible. Personally I find it impossible to reach 3D level even with AAA when it comes to adult games but VN type like DMD or similiar games with hundreds of branches, outcomes and technical additions would be something I could pay for a lot.
As for incest I'm biased so my opinion isn't really objective as I really don't like it. But in my opinion fans should be annoyed as hell with terrible state whole genre is now. When something is overused, quality of future games is drastically lower. Writing is essential but it doesn't have to be something sophisticated to create good story. With incest it's damn hard to make it sounds realistic so most games fail hard when it comes to that. DMD could be so so if not for almost moronic level daughter. Problem with that is that if you would remove it, dev wouldn't be able to create such a silly "romance" route and it would have to be something more drastic. Maybe not DF drama but something at least. For me the best game so far in which I can somehow understand incest is My Sister My Roommate but in most cases incest is just a popular fodder to gain attention so I really don't like it for that. Btw. DMD is a perfect example of mentioned Patreon influences as dev was criticized for not having a lot of sexual content so he added that. But it changed whole character of MC who's now a cold fucker who wish to destroy his daughter's life while banging her friends and all females he meet. Previously he could've been just a dude with some serious mental issues looking for romance and for me it would be much more enjoyable in given setting. Right now he's worse than Max of BB when it comes to morality and that's something.
- Sep 5, 2017
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If you want something forbidden, then in theory, incest is great starting point, it brings characters together in believable way. What happens next is different story. Sadly, what we now see everywhere is just "hey, look, incest, great taboo, forbidden by society, ain't that great?" No, it isn't! Not by itself. When MC fucks everyone in the family (excluding usually MIA father and family hamster), it loses most of the forbidden potential. Where's the thrill, fear of getting caught, etc? "Oh dear sister, if mom catches us doing this, she'll be mildly annoyed and will refuse to fuck me herself as punishment!" Meh. And it doesn't have to be only incest, kingdom for some Romeo and Juliet kind of story (a little spiced up of course).
Problem is, this has pretty low chance to happen with Patreon-funded games. Common problem of Patreon games is ongoing development. Sure, it's what it's all about. Unfortunately, it makes all of them suck. It's great when you find game for the first time and it's already version 0.7 or so (read "already has fair amount of content"), you start playing, enjoy the story immersion, etc. It still ends prematurely, but it doesn't matter at the moment, you're excited and happy to send author some money and hope for more. You wait a month (typically) for new update, only to realize that it may not be bad, but compared to what you've seen already, there's not much new stuff. And it's like this month after month. Original excitement is gone, because you never get enough to reach the right level of immersion again. It's like driving on jammed highway, move-stop-move-stop. It's still driving and you're getting somewhere, but that's just not it anymore. In the end, many people will mainly look for more intense stuff (= sex scenes) and nag creators about it. And they will probably try to make them happy, because they already got used to money rolling in and want it to continue.
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I have nothing against incest per se. It's just not my thing as I find it so unrealistic that I can't feel any immersion within a game. But I don't feel many other fetishes and it's all fine. People like what they like. I started to feel reluctance towards incest when I first entered this forum and learned about all these Patreon games. Incest is popular and really easy for implementation (at least if feels so) so people just copy those who were first as they picked incest. No one noticed that no game was able to achieve BB,DoD,DMD or SS level for a year and it doesn't look like any game will do so. But people still copy it as they see financial merits in it even tho they're illusional now. But for this reason our whole market is stagnant as hell and barely any new ideas are emerging. I partialy blame BB for that as it achieved great success and developer doesn't even like incest so other people find it appealing. I also struggle to see any tabbo in it when it's more common than vanilla here.
But my opinion doesn't matter and I hope new incest games will come for fans and bring some amazing quality. Problem is that quality at this point is lower than ever and devs can't find a way to create something original
I ignored Elena throughout the first game. If you've ever played a bioware game, I like to think of DMD and games like it in that light. Where you're a character with a certain set of skills who has to go on a set quest that has a definitive ending. How you get there is up to you, but getting there is your goal. In that way you can choose to be an asshole fucking everything that walks while you slowly corrupt your daughter. I chose not to. So I don't penalise them for that the way I do characters like Max, who are literally just rapists with an uncanny charisma, or stupid girls around them.
The reason I like Dual family so much is it addresses the Max like character with the son. In his dreams he has to confront the fact that he's headed down a violent path that will only lead to pain for him and his family. He has to make a choice to either not care and become that brute or to give a damn and learn to control his urges so that he can do what he needs to through love instead of pain.
I've never really agreed that we shouldn't flood a market with the same genre. I've always accepted that there is a lot of crap out there. I'm a huge superhero geek. I recognise when a superhero film is just ok, like the majority, great, like Logan, or terrible, like suicide squad. Don't get me wrong, it disappoints me to see them fail, but I move on. I feel the same way about adult games. I recognise that view of family for instance is mediocre, I think BB and MotH are horrible, and I think dreaming of Dana is something worthy of praise.
There are so many games that I've skipped because I can tell they're copy pasted. So many others I've enjoyed just to pass time but don't care if I ever play again. But with developers who do well, like Ptolemy, I can't wait for more.
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Fair points. No need to argue about that as our perception of incest games will differ drasticaly and that's fine. I must say that I kinda enjoy Dual Family and find it much more appealing than most games as it's almost believable for me. Characters seriously look like they have some issues and I find this approach interesting. Ofc, f-d and s-m at the same time is too much for my immersion systems but game as whole is definitely something different.
About flood, it's not a case what we should or shouldn't do. I just find it cancerous - regardless what fetish is dominating. There is only 1 serious adult games market on this planet (Japanese) and no fetish is dominant even tho rape is stronger than others. If our industry can't achieve same results it means something is wrong. Maybe it's about size, maybe Patreon, but I really find it unhealthy. Lack of diversity is bad for players and developers alike
About flood, it's not a case what we should or shouldn't do. I just find it cancerous - regardless what fetish is dominating. There is only 1 serious adult games market on this planet (Japanese) and no fetish is dominant even tho rape is stronger than others. If our industry can't achieve same results it means something is wrong. Maybe it's about size, maybe Patreon, but I really find it unhealthy. Lack of diversity is bad for players and developers alike
I hear you there. I think when more quality writers come out of the woodwork we might see some of that happening. I for one would love more well written female protagonist games like good girl gone bad. I find the majority to just be rape fantasy Sims in reverse. GGGB is definitely an exaggerated reality, but most stories are, and I have enjoyed it more than most of the games I've played.
Wicked choices also comes to mind, it does have incest content, but incest isn't the focus of the story, just a byproduct of it. I really like the writing though, the author does a great job of providing the sensory detail that the images can't, or drawing attention to a specific aspect of them, when necessary.
Ofc that's still in the realm of indie and the VN format. That said, who knows, if we can get a few games like these to take off maybe we can get a bigger life is strange type adventure puzzle game. We need to create that community to demand it first though.
If I were somebody who is checking porn games for banned content on Patreon, I would also google it and check on sites like this. That way I would get all info I need about game without playing it.
I think that any kind of camouflage will not work. Developers need to find another platform and ditch Patreon.
I think that any kind of camouflage will not work. Developers need to find another platform and ditch Patreon.
That's why I have such a strong conviction that they aren't actively seeking violators. It would be too easy to shut down most games if they actually wanted to. They have to be using the report function. Maybe at first they had a shortlist of high profile enough cases to go after in order to make some noise for those parties that care, but I don't think they are looking for trouble.Yeah, it might be a matter of time. Any player is able to find these games relatively easy. If they would pay me I would ban most games within a day
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Slow approach is honestly better for them. Scared people will change their sites without suspensions and it works to some degree. But damn, shitstorm we would have here would be so strong if they would just ban all these games one day F95 would have trouble without those incest games as well
F95 would have trouble without those incest games as wellI'm in agreement here. There is also one other matter, namely it feels like a lot of self censoring creators see this situation as an opportunity to be more marketable on the mainstream scene. Like "Look, it's not that we want to cut content, Patreon is forcing us, blame them" while forgetting why this platform was popular in the first place.
That sounds like projection to me. Almost all the content creators I've paid any attention to are fighting their regulations. Some even do it in game. I really find what Chloe18 did to be funny. They allow you to type in what you want the relationship between their incest couple to be, and at the same time have a joke saying that they don't suggest you make them siblings because so and so doesn't like that.
Perhaps, at the end of the day my is merely an opinion. I know of a game that used the same trick to deal with the relationship but dropped it altogether when the "crisis" struck.
I'm pretty sure that chloe18 did this after their suspension. I'm guessing yours was already doing it out of pressure rather than pleasure.