Why do people dislike VN and RPGM?

[Yazen_]

Already done:
https://f95zone.to/threads/liliths-throne-v0-4-6-7-innoxia.3564/

It is a good game.

EDIT:
Some good sex systems:
https://f95zone.to/threads/lab-rats-2-v0-51-1-vren.7260/
https://f95zone.to/threads/eratohok-2022-06-05-wamekukyouzin.7042/

You must be registered to see the links

This one is very simple but it gets the job done:
https://f95zone.to/threads/molesting-mother-final-sistny.32167/
The appeal is the risk of getting caught and the fear on the mother face.

Nice thanks for these, I'll be able to make use of these as good references for the game I wanna make. Honestly though, I know some of these are text based sexual scenario but with the idea I have in mind, I want to have animations/render in my gameplay to bring the immersion up a notch.

 

[JustXThings]

While playing porn I expect a couple of things to happen.

1. Immersion
2. Expectation

Anything that removes any of the two is IMO very bad because it affects directly the aim of playing a porn game.

Immersion

Immersion is pretty straight forward. There are games that have good immersion and have you "in the game" the whole time. The engine doesn't matter.

Having to move around in RPGM doesn't matter. Having to move around aimlessly is the problem. Say a great game like 'Selena one hour agent'. You can move around a lot, get lost even but always within the scenario at hand. You move to a different location and start a new case. You are always immersed into that particular case, or more specifically, how to get Selena to show more meat within the case. You don't need to move to other locations unless the game states so. The system is pure beauty.

Other RPGM create big maps w/o hints which are meant for the player to get lost, or randomly look for events and lengthen the game duration artificially. This breaks the immersion.

The equivalent in a VN. Mini-games, free roams, collectables and such. The story is paused, hence the immersion and as a player you start doing some rando task which could be easily explained in the VN format by giving proper choices w/o breaking the immersion.

Expectation

Expectation is the feeling that something will happen due to a decision that you just made. You are talking with your over 18 little sister and she mentions this movie she really wants to see but nobody wants to go with her. So, you agree to go some-when. The quest opens, the UI indicates it somehow (task list, pop up, whatever). From that moment on you know that you will "enjoy a movie" with your little sister in the cozy darkness of the cinema back rows.

It also counts for instance in RPGM / Sandox repeating an event knowing it will have a different outcome because you fulfill some previous requirements. It feels joyful because I am expecting something to happen. It is similar to how I get all hyped when I get some new ore and walk to my favorite smith in far-away town, wait for a day and go back to farm bitches with higher damage numbers. But, this needs to be done with measure. That's why location warping is a thing in so many games.

How to break expectation ? Things happening randomly w/o any connection. Like I go here and I see some randos fucking.

---

So. I don't need anything else really. I don't mind moving around in RPGM if it feels that I am progressing. I don't care repeating events in a sandbox if I feel something will happen. I don't mind reading tons of text making choices if I see that what happens in the story is relevant to my choices. I also don't care if the story has no choices. A well written kinetic novel fulfill my aim for a porn game better than a non immersive RPGM, Sandbox or VN with lots of choices.

 

[Winterfire]

The ability to interact or alter things inside a virutal world.
A sword reducing health points or a spell mind control enemies.
A dialog that can convince or be rejected.
To be a game many different parts must work togather in unision to achieve an immersive expersiance that let you control the outcome by your actions.
A shooter is more then just firing bullets.
It is moving throught area's, sound, drop off, Item interaction(like if i shoot i cola can it shoud react to being hit)
Armor vs peneteration, Healthpools, Headshot, etc.
A game is by its very nature superior to all other forms of entertaiment because it is your skill not the story that decided the outcome.
Visual novels are in 99% of the cases just a single linear story where your choices(If you get them) mean nothing.
It would be like claiming picture's are movies just because you can use them to tell a story.

"The ability to interact or alter things inside a virutal world."
"A dialog that can convince or be rejected."

Those things, alongside with exploration, interactions (With the world/characters) and even game overs are part of most of the Visual Novels I have played (2DCG, Japanese, for the most part).
Of course I have also played VNs inspired by that style, such as Fate of Irnia.

Then we have Visual Novel hybrids, such as the one I am developing right now, which include other elements... In my case, Dungeon Crawling and many systems you'd expect from a RPG (Stats, Inventory, and so on).
But there are games that only implement battle (+ other rpg elements) such as Parasite Black, or only some of the RPG elements (such as stats and inventory).

 

[Yazen_]

I personally think, that VNs are a vehicle that focuses more on storytelling than actual gaming. I'm personally a great fan of VNs and also sandbox-VNs. But I come more from real porn than actually gaming as my biggest problem with currently existing real porn is that the story-telling elements (if even existing) are mostly just bad executed. So it just mostly bores me to death. Many VN-creators are much more thoroughly and also creative in this regard. I must confess, I get much more excited of reading and watching some very good VNs as I have ever been when watching porn.

And again as formerly said. Even when some persons quite loudly saying that they don't like VNs, VNs are actually a quite popular format. I think, it is rather that there are so much existing VNs here, but only few good lewd games of other genres. So people who like to have a different game-genres may feel a bit left behind.

But one has to say to this, that with the existing engines it is way more time-intensive to create a decent game, that isn't a VN, as the process of doing so is much more complex.

The problem with RPGM-Games is in my opinion quite a different one, as you must see, that there are currently two main engines which are used to create lewd games, which are represented here on f95zon. Those are Ren'py and RPGM. There are also Unity, Unreal Engine, QSP, HTML and some lesser known ones. But there are actually quite few games who use them.

Ren'py is the most represented game-engine on f95. It has been mostly made for easily producing VNs.
RPGM is primarily made for generating 2D round-based role playing games, where you can walk around a map.

Now there are surely gamers who complain about VNs as well as RPGM-Games, as they might be not be satisfied with the 2D round-based rpg-games as well.
But I think, what is here more important is that there are many many VN-fans, who do rather want to have an easy to explore story than a complex world, you have to explore on your own to get your fap. I think, those are the majority of persons which complain about RPGM, as this is also a quite often used game engine. Of course, there are still easy to play games with RPGM and quite hard-to-play games with Ren'py. But it is not the majority of the games produced with the respective engine.

I personally confess, that I also rather play Ren'py games than RPGM-games and only one RPGM-game is currently on my favourite list and if I see an interesting RPGM-Game, I think two times about whether I download it or not. But this is still a thing of personal preference.

I hate that I couldn't give you a reaction anymore since I overused it and didn't know that there's limited reactions to be given per day. Maybe tomorrow then.

But damn, well broken down! Thanks, you just gave me the clarity I need. Personally I'm a story guy, so I'm leaning more into visual novels but I feel like I'd be wasting an opportunity if I don't make it something greater if not better than just telling a linear or branching interactive story. Having an open world would be nice. I could try and use the RPGM-VN style of game but I want to be more consistent with it so I'd most likely go for Sandbox-VN with some interactive maps that will help character building and story progression. But yeah, gameplay wise, I also wish to implement something like RPGM's battle mode or something but in POV perspective with renders and animations.

 

[Yazen_]

While playing porn I expect a couple of things to happen.

1. Immersion
2. Expectation

Anything that removes any of the two is IMO very bad because it affects directly the aim of playing a porn game.

Immersion

Immersion is pretty straight forward. There are games that have good immersion and have you "in the game" the whole time. The engine doesn't matter.

Having to move around in RPGM doesn't matter. Having to move around aimlessly is the problem. Say a great game like 'Selena one hour agent'. You can move around a lot, get lost even but always within the scenario at hand. You move to a different location and start a new case. You are always immersed into that particular case, or more specifically, how to get Selena to show more meat within the case. You don't need to move to other locations unless the game states so. The system is pure beauty.

Other RPGM create big maps w/o hints which are meant for the player to get lost, or randomly look for events and lengthen the game duration artificially. This breaks the immersion.

The equivalent in a VN. Mini-games, free roams, collectables and such. The story is paused, hence the immersion and as a player you start doing some rando task which could be easily explained in the VN format by giving proper choices w/o breaking the immersion.

Expectation

Expectation is the feeling that something will happen due to a decision that you just made. You are talking with your over 18 little sister and she mentions this movie she really wants to see but nobody wants to go with her. So, you agree to go some-when. The quest opens, the UI indicates it somehow (task list, pop up, whatever). From that moment on you know that you will "enjoy a movie" with your little sister in the cozy darkness of the cinema back rows.

It also counts for instance in RPGM / Sandox repeating an event knowing it will have a different outcome because you fulfill some previous requirements. It feels joyful because I am expecting something to happen. It is similar to how I get all hyped when I get some new ore and walk to my favorite smith in far-away town, wait for a day and go back to farm bitches with higher damage numbers. But, this needs to be done with measure. That's why location warping is a thing in so many games.

How to break expectation ? Things happening randomly w/o any connection. Like I go here and I see some randos fucking.

---

So. I don't need anything else really. I don't mind moving around in RPGM if it feels that I am progressing. I don't care repeating events in a sandbox if I feel something will happen. I don't mind reading tons of text making choices if I see that what happens in the story is relevant to my choices. I also don't care if the story has no choices. A well written kinetic novel fulfill my aim for a porn game better than a non immersive RPGM, Sandbox or VN with lots of choices.

Holy crap I keep on getting golden responses here. Thank you very much! This actually just deepened my understanding in both immersion and what to expect in porn games. Damn, I'd like to see if I could meet these two when I start creating my own game. If you don't mind, I'll probably approach you to be one of the judges of it.

 

[stuffstuffstuff]

My adult game consumption is almost exclusively VNs, as my primary interest is stories/character interactions/drama, so for me adding things like sandbox/free roam/stats/grinding I always see as having a negative impact on story delivery.

They are almost always of two types: They allow you do any of the content in any order, so there is no cohesive story, every character has their own little self contained arc that rarely, if ever, interacts with any others.

Then there's the ones where there is an overarching story and you have to do it in order, so anything added in between exists solely to waste your time.

I have only tried a few of the more traditional game play focused types, but none of them managed to click. I'm more likely to just load up steam if that's what I'm in the mood for.

 

[RossoX]

It is worth noting that VN's are clearly the most popular; just look at the top adult patreon game devs, and over 80% of them are VN, sandbox or rpgm, sometimes a mix. Or you just need to look at this forum, where the most rated threads and with the most amount of comments (and featured games in the front page) are mostly of those types of games.

The truth is that the simple-minded masses love the easy and accessible entertainment in any form of media like music or movies, therefore the same applies for adult games. The people who complains about those types of games are the vocal minority.

I'm in that minority; because as others said here, those types of games seem to be the easiest to make, which means that most of the time those games are amateurish and have horrible writing, grammar, design, interface, art, etc. I do occasionally play and even enjoy some of those games once in a while (the more polished ones), but I usually stay away from them.

For me, even tough the end goal is a fap I still wanna play something that engages me more than just the sex appeal, so I tend to gravitate much more towards games that have at least some decent design gameplay. That way, I can have some fun besides the fap, and then if the sexual content of said game is also good it's a win-win.

 

[Living In A Lewd World]

While playing porn I expect a couple of things to happen.

1. Immersion
2. Expectation

Anything that removes any of the two is IMO very bad because it affects directly the aim of playing a porn game.

Immersion

Immersion is pretty straight forward. There are games that have good immersion and have you "in the game" the whole time. The engine doesn't matter.

Having to move around in RPGM doesn't matter. Having to move around aimlessly is the problem. Say a great game like 'Selena one hour agent'. You can move around a lot, get lost even but always within the scenario at hand. You move to a different location and start a new case. You are always immersed into that particular case, or more specifically, how to get Selena to show more meat within the case. You don't need to move to other locations unless the game states so. The system is pure beauty.

Other RPGM create big maps w/o hints which are meant for the player to get lost, or randomly look for events and lengthen the game duration artificially. This breaks the immersion.

The equivalent in a VN. Mini-games, free roams, collectables and such. The story is paused, hence the immersion and as a player you start doing some rando task which could be easily explained in the VN format by giving proper choices w/o breaking the immersion.

Expectation

Expectation is the feeling that something will happen due to a decision that you just made. You are talking with your over 18 little sister and she mentions this movie she really wants to see but nobody wants to go with her. So, you agree to go some-when. The quest opens, the UI indicates it somehow (task list, pop up, whatever). From that moment on you know that you will "enjoy a movie" with your little sister in the cozy darkness of the cinema back rows.

It also counts for instance in RPGM / Sandox repeating an event knowing it will have a different outcome because you fulfill some previous requirements. It feels joyful because I am expecting something to happen. It is similar to how I get all hyped when I get some new ore and walk to my favorite smith in far-away town, wait for a day and go back to farm bitches with higher damage numbers. But, this needs to be done with measure. That's why location warping is a thing in so many games.

How to break expectation ? Things happening randomly w/o any connection. Like I go here and I see some randos fucking.

---

So. I don't need anything else really. I don't mind moving around in RPGM if it feels that I am progressing. I don't care repeating events in a sandbox if I feel something will happen. I don't mind reading tons of text making choices if I see that what happens in the story is relevant to my choices. I also don't care if the story has no choices. A well written kinetic novel fulfill my aim for a porn game better than a non immersive RPGM, Sandbox or VN with lots of choices.

I'm mostly with you, but mini-games and free-roam-modes in VNs can actually be quite interesting. But they have to be very well thought through.

E.g. I like the free-roams in "Being a DIK" (yet not the Smartphone-Minigames), as it is interesting to explore the different lewd scenes, that are hidden there oneself and the immersion in a game like "The headmaster" would in my eyes work much worse, if one left away the free-roam-elements and the punishment watergun-minigames, as this gives you actually the impression, that you are in command.

But I must confess, especially the latter is a special case, as this is a mix of management-game and story-driven approach, so one might not even count this as a VN.

 

[Yazen_]

My adult game consumption is almost exclusively VNs, as my primary interest is stories/character interactions/drama, so for me adding things like sandbox/free roam/stats/grinding I always see as having a negative impact on story delivery.

They are almost always of two types: They allow you do any of the content in any order, so there is no cohesive story, every character has their own little self contained arc that rarely, if ever, interacts with any others.

Then there's the ones where there is an overarching story and you have to do it in order, so anything added in between exists solely to waste your time.

I have only tried a few of the more traditional game play focused types, but none of them managed to click. I'm more likely to just load up steam if that's what I'm in the mood for.

Well that's one way to look at it and a challenge for me to overcome. I know how most things would just distract and break the immersion for the players when it comes to sandbox games. In all honesty, I want my game to feel whole and not dissected into parts like you said. I have to put more thought into creating my game so that the immersion does not break. I could most likely try what Dr. Pinkcake did in his game Being a DIK where it's a VN with free roaming at certain periods of the game which does not entirely break the immersion since the MC is still doing his own thing. Although it is not a part sandbox game, I'm sure I can still make use of it anyway.

Having a sandbox with map restriction only for relevant events? Maybe that could work. Having multiple routes for the girls in the story would be unavoidably feel like they're just parts of the game with their own bubble arc. But it does give the opportunity for players to explore which girl they prefer spending their time with more. I guess only the narrative can fill the void you feel when it comes to sandbox games being unimmmersive.

 

[Yazen_]

It is worth noting that VN's are clearly the most popular; just look at the top adult patreon game devs, and over 80% of them are VN, sandbox or rpgm, sometimes a mix. Or you just need to look at this forum, where the most rated threads and with the most amount of comments (and featured games in the front page) are mostly of those types of games.

The truth is that the simple-minded masses love the easy and accessible entertainment in any form of media like music or movies, therefore the same applies for adult games. The people who complains about those types of games are the vocal minority.

I'm in that minority; because as others said here, those types of games seem to be the easiest to make, which means that most of the time those games are amateurish and have horrible writing, grammar, design, interface, art, etc. I do occasionally play and even enjoy some of those games once in a while (the more polished ones), but I usually stay away from them.

For me, even tough the end goal is a fap I still wanna play something that engages me more than just the sex appeal, so I tend to gravitate much more towards games that have at least some decent design gameplay. That way, I can have some fun besides the fap, and then if the sexual content of said game is also good it's a win-win.

I see, thanks for explaining this! I guess I'll have to stick with my plan now but focus more on giving a more polished story and visuals as well as the kind of gameplay I wanna bring into the table so that people would help support me into developing more and better games for the following years.

 

[Deleted member 5410619]

2DCG, Japanese, for the most part

Ah.
I dont play those.
Japanese games confuse me due to culture difference.
I am happy you found none linear visual novels with accauly choice.
But the once i played had no choice(game over for picking the wrong choice or just keep going like you didnt make a choice with meaby 1 line of dialog change)

The truth is that the simple-minded masses love the easy and accessible entertainment in any form of media like music or movies, therefore the same applies for adult games. The people who complains about those types of games are the vocal minority.

I hate this truth but it is the truth.

 

[Nagozo]

I hate this truth but it is the truth.

I don't see why this has to be a bad thing. You, and I, and everyone else on this forum are the simple masses. We come here for easy and accessible entertainment -- games, novels, comics, whatever -- because life is challenging enough as it is and this is a nice and easy way to take a break from the less nice and easy parts.
I think that's great, to be honest. Even if there's a lot of lower quality stuff because most creators are amateurs/hobbyists, there's still stuff that appeals to any of us. Plus, we're pirates; we don't lose anything if generic Ren'py incest game #70231 is released and abandoned, but we get to freely profit from the fruits of the labour of creators who do cater to our interests.
Complaining isn't going to change the scene, and more importantly, it's not going to make anyone in that vocal minority feel better. Live and let live; just engage with the stuff you do enjoy.

 

[Deleted member 5410619]

You, and I, and everyone else on this forum are the simple masses

Did you just insult me?
Compairing me of all people to the idiots that rule our world by there sheer numbers?
You sir are officaly anoying.

I don't see why this has to be a bad thing.

It is my firm believe that if people where smarter there would be better entertainment, Better healthcare, Better life overall.
We would also not need to idiot proof everything.
It is a bad thing because it encourage's people to settle for badly done.
Instead of exelence.

Complaining isn't going to change the scene,

Stating a fact is not complaining.

 

[CaptainBipto]

I see, thanks for your input!

I would like to ask you what Night of Revenge gameplay is like and what kind of game it is exactly? It looks like RPGM to me but without the pokemon style of sprites.

Night of Revenge
If this is the game they are referring to, it is a pretty good game, built on Unity. I can't say the story line is unique, but it is a fairly original telling of a story of revenge and redemption.
It is a side scrolling, platformer game, where the protagonist gets to beat the stuffings out of various and sundry kinky creepy monsters, in a, fairly, open world map. You can upgrade weapons, a clothing damage system, and a stat/sex tracker. It has a battle fuck system where you don't HAVE to be defeated to see some sexy times, but it does have several defeat sex scenes as well. It does have some gore/ryona in it if you aren't careful, not every defeat leads to sex.

Hey again! This is a rather straightforward post. For the past few days, I've seen various responses from people with varying preferences and I see most of them telling they don't like either VNs nor RPGM or both. Why?

I personally like both of these games, I even play sandbox ones, though it's mostly just a cycle of the three I play.

> I wanna know everyone's opinion on each type of game and what kind of games do you usually prefer playing?
> Gameplay wise, what would you like to see be implemented in a porn game?

I don't mind VN's too much, if they have a story I like or the sexy times are good enough. My issues with VN's are that they feel like fairly static, low effort games. There usually isn't much interaction, other than clicking next, and most of the scenes are 1 and done with no repeat scenes (for your preferred scenes).

I do like RPGM games, mostly because I can move around and interact with the environment, with bonus points for games that have sprites for the mobs roaming the map (instead of random surprise attacks). You can also gain/upgrade your gear and weapons, because running around with the same gun/sword and armor for the entire game gets a little boring to me.
The battle system may be repetitive, but I have yet to see a game where every battle REQUIRES you to use different tactics and strategies, spam your 'best' skills, dodge, buff/heal when needed, and rinse and repeat for every encounter.

My favored game style/genre is a fantasy/scifi Adventure (RPG) game where you can move about, interact with the environment, various NPCs, and side quests, perform the usual kill things and collect stuff, and occasionally ... follow the main story line.

 

[nulnil]

You can't make anything in depth in those engines. Well, you can, but your options are extremely limited and you'd have a better time using any other engine.

 

[Deleted member 440241]

Oversaturation of bad games. Thanks to RPGM and Renpy both types of game are relatively easy to make. Bad map design and/or frequent enemy attacks can quickly turn RPGM games into a dull grind where the sex scenes aren't worth the work put into unlocking them. VNs are entirely dependent on the story for their quality but most people are not inherently good writers. A lack of meaningful choices can also ruin the immersion souring player experiences. Half a dozen new games will be posted daily in one of these 2 engines and 99% of them fall victim to the problems I mentioned. So people get sick of the bad games and start hating the categories as a whole.

And sometimes it's just a matter of taste. A lot of people just don't like the gameplay of an RPG or aren't interested in clicking through a VN. Since every group has their assholes a portion of these people will also go out of their way to comment on how they dislike these games.

 

[Pitrik]

Because rpgm are boring

 

[Yazen_]

Night of Revenge
If this is the game they are referring to, it is a pretty good game, built on Unity. I can't say the story line is unique, but it is a fairly original telling of a story of revenge and redemption.
It is a side scrolling, platformer game, where the protagonist gets to beat the stuffings out of various and sundry kinky creepy monsters, in a, fairly, open world map. You can upgrade weapons, a clothing damage system, and a stat/sex tracker. It has a battle fuck system where you don't HAVE to be defeated to see some sexy times, but it does have several defeat sex scenes as well. It does have some gore/ryona in it if you aren't careful, not every defeat leads to sex.

I don't mind VN's too much, if they have a story I like or the sexy times are good enough. My issues with VN's are that they feel like fairly static, low effort games. There usually isn't much interaction, other than clicking next, and most of the scenes are 1 and done with no repeat scenes (for your preferred scenes).

I do like RPGM games, mostly because I can move around and interact with the environment, with bonus points for games that have sprites for the mobs roaming the map (instead of random surprise attacks). You can also gain/upgrade your gear and weapons, because running around with the same gun/sword and armor for the entire game gets a little boring to me.
The battle system may be repetitive, but I have yet to see a game where every battle REQUIRES you to use different tactics and strategies, spam your 'best' skills, dodge, buff/heal when needed, and rinse and repeat for every encounter.

My favored game style/genre is a fantasy/scifi Adventure (RPG) game where you can move about, interact with the environment, various NPCs, and side quests, perform the usual kill things and collect stuff, and occasionally ... follow the main story line.

Thanks for answering the question as well as putting your input! I see, well I'm planning on creating a game with a hybrid of VN and Sandbox as an RPG. Not necessarily an open world but you will get to live a life of a character and be immersed on his story along the way. But for now I'm gonna put a pause on that since I plan on making short game projects for practice and upload them in here. I like the Sci-fi/fantasy adventure idea. Funny enough, I also had created a game concept on that for a school project. I might do something like that again in the future but it would be more of an H game now.

 

[Yazen_]

You can't make anything in depth in those engines. Well, you can, but your options are extremely limited and you'd have a better time using any other engine.

That I agree with but it depends on how a developer brings the player experience to a level. You can have depth in a VN so long as it fulfill the roleplaying feeling for the player. To get you attached to the characters and be able to feel emotions though the story and scenes. And even though some people are not very fond of reading stories, I suppose it's mainly because of player preference which is fine. I just find it hard to make appealing porn games in other engines as I've researched about it last night. But maybe someday it would work.

 

[Yazen_]

Oversaturation of bad games. Thanks to RPGM and Renpy both types of game are relatively easy to make. Bad map design and/or frequent enemy attacks can quickly turn RPGM games into a dull grind where the sex scenes aren't worth the work put into unlocking them. VNs are entirely dependent on the story for their quality but most people are not inherently good writers. A lack of meaningful choices can also ruin the immersion souring player experiences. Half a dozen new games will be posted daily in one of these 2 engines and 99% of them fall victim to the problems I mentioned. So people get sick of the bad games and start hating the categories as a whole.

And sometimes it's just a matter of taste. A lot of people just don't like the gameplay of an RPG or aren't interested in clicking through a VN. Since every group has their assholes a portion of these people will also go out of their way to comment on how they dislike these games.

Understandable. You make good point in everything that you just said. I guess the solution is obvious to avoid from falling into the same same fate as many RPGM and VN games out there. Thanks for the response!