Why do people dislike VN and RPGM?

[Yazen_]

Hey again! This is a rather straightforward post. For the past few days, I've seen various responses from people with varying preferences and I see most of them telling they don't like either VNs nor RPGM or both. Why?

I personally like both of these games, I even play sandbox ones, though it's mostly just a cycle of the three I play.

> I wanna know everyone's opinion on each type of game and what kind of games do you usually prefer playing?
> Gameplay wise, what would you like to see be implemented in a porn game?

 

[Pretentious Goblin]

VNs are mostly just sitting through walls of text with minimal player interaction. Some people don't consider them games at all, though I would disagree (kinetic novels lack even the choices you get in VNs, so those aren't games).

I don't mind RPGM, but along with Ren'py it's very appealing as "baby's first game engine", so a lot of shovelware gets put out, often using stock assets (which to be fair, even very popular games use at least some bought assets). It's also not a good engine for VN-style games, which are very popular, so some people just don't care for it, seeing it as a way to add grind and pad out a game's actual content.

 

[Law.Fletcher]

I prefer RPGM or sandbox style games because you get to do things, discover hidden features and interact with the world. With VNs it's often just clicking through tons and tons of text and the choices you can make are very minor. Also sometimes I just like to run around, grind a bit without thinking or reading too much and still be immersed in the world that the game takes place in, with VN's it's usually just skipping through the dialogue at some point to get to the spicy stuff and done. Idk, I just like more freedom I suppose

What would I like to see implemented... Honestly I would love to see more games which are similar to night of revenge. Just a high quality game which is also a lot of fun in the gameplay aspect itself, has a lot to discover so it offers a lot of variety and has very good graphics

 

[Deleted member 5410619]

Visual novels are not games.
There just a glorified picture book with a (useally) poorly written story.
Rpgm are often just walking simulators.
Adding walking around to a linear story.

Both have a reputation for being just bad.

Believe it or not but gamers want to game.
We dont want to sit through a 5 hour story with 1 meaby 2 choices that mean dick all in the story.
We can read or watch a movie that is going to give us the same level of engament.

For example:
Imperial gatekeeper gameplay is very simple.
But it has gameplay.
And i am more interested in that then any of the billions of poorly written stories with pictures on the background.

Gamers want to game.

And before someone complains visual novels are populair.
That is because a lot of people on this site arent gamers.

 

[Deleted member 5410619]

> I wanna know everyone's opinion on each type of game and what kind of games do you usually prefer playing?
> Gameplay wise, what would you like to see be implemented in a porn game?

I myself like managment games.
Free city, stationmaster, Lab rats 2.
I enjoy building and corrupting.

As for what i like to see implemented in a porn game.
A few games systems i came up with over my long unlife:

Mind control system:
Everyone has willpower in this game.
The more willpower the less control you have.
Using the power of hypnosis the player opens a menu.
In the menu is the willpower bar and several options.
Willpower of 75+ can only be use to give the victem compulsions.
Stuff like feeling horny whenever your around or a strong urge to play with there boobs whenever they hear the word chicken.
Stuff that you resist doing in public.
This is the main way to lower willpower as every desire drains 1 willpower.
You get 10 willpower back per day.
50-75:
This is subconsions actions:
Think of stuff you do actomaticly and without thinking.
You could programme your victems to sleep naked or go to bed at 19:00 every night.
Have them sleepwalk or automatic grab there boobs when they see you.
These actions they do without thinking about it.
If they notice they can overwritte it by spending 2 willpower.
Again they only get 10 willpower a day.
25-50:
Reprogrammed.
You change there personality, how they think, how they feel.
But they are still very much a person.
This is ideal slave mode.
As you can programme them to be a devoted sex slave. A reluctant breeding doll, etc.
They will act to there personality and come up with there own idea's.
Meaby you made them a devoted sex slave and told them to corrupt your teacher.
They will try to carry out your orders to the best of there abilities.
This take 4 willpower to supress.
0-25:
There mindless drones.
Unable to do anything you dont programme in.
They dont think, They dont feel, They dont act.
They will only ever do there programming.
Meaning you need to program in when they eat, shit, sleep, etc.
The biggest advantage of drone mode is that they dont get bored.
They can stand still as a statue, watch for hours and perfectly recall everything you tell them to remember.
This require 8 to supress.

Now the trick is to balance the many different comands?
Programes?
As you want to keep them in a certain will area.
I also consider making willpower 0 a failstate.
Making them braindead and unable to do anything other then obey a direct command.
As they arent even able to follow a program or anything long term.
Making 0 will a failure state adds the challange to avoiding it.
Especialy when it is inreversable.

An other system for an other game i had in mind was:
Each of these have a limit of 100.

Education:
You use this to buy upgrade for your schools.
Class rooms, hiring teachers, etc.
This is raised by your students learning.

Political favor's:
This is your influence over politicians.
Think stuff like media manipulation, Getting the cops of your back, Changing laws.
You get this doing favor's for the powerful.

Criminal connections:
Your resource to buy less then legal or stuff you can not justify as school material.
Think bondage gear, a location for your whore students, Drug's, hypno tools, etc.
You get this by whoring out your students.

Heat: This is how close the cops are finding prove of your crimes.
If this reaches 100 you lose.

 

[Yazen_]

VNs are mostly just sitting through walls of text with minimal player interaction. Some people don't consider them games at all, though I would disagree (kinetic novels lack even the choices you get in VNs, so those aren't games).

I don't mind RPGM, but along with Ren'py it's very appealing as "baby's first game engine", so a lot of shovelware gets put out, often using stock assets (which to be fair, even very popular games use at least some bought assets). It's also not a good engine for VN-style games, which are very popular, so some people just don't care for it, seeing it as a way to add grind and pad out a game's actual content.

Hmm I see. So I get the impression that players are just tired of consuming the same kind of content in a routine where it's either grinding before actual content in terms of RPGM and when it comes to VN, some of the content feels mediocre without much thought process into creating it since in essence, anyone could slap a story with a visual and just have it be linear until the game ends.

Am I over assuming things? If I'm correct then I'll try to find a way around not to fall into these kind of games to develop. I won't lie, but I still might use RPGM or VN into creating my first game, or both. Just to cop a feel for an experience on what it's like to bring a storytelling experience to my players. I don't plan to make my game feel flat so I've been writing a lot of things down to possibly create a gameplay that would be fresh for players that want to enjoy the true essence of doing what you want to do when it comes to having sexual intercourse with the girls. I have a few ideas in mind, it's not nearly solid yet, but I do think it would make for an interesting gameplay... No doubt that it will require an immense amount of work though. I'll most likely will have to rely on building a team for it but honestly with no budget, I would struggle on doing so.

 

[Yazen_]

I prefer RPGM or sandbox style games because you get to do things, discover hidden features and interact with the world. With VNs it's often just clicking through tons and tons of text and the choices you can make are very minor. Also sometimes I just like to run around, grind a bit without thinking or reading too much and still be immersed in the world that the game takes place in, with VN's it's usually just skipping through the dialogue at some point to get to the spicy stuff and done. Idk, I just like more freedom I suppose

What would I like to see implemented... Honestly I would love to see more games which are similar to night of revenge. Just a high quality game which is also a lot of fun in the gameplay aspect itself, has a lot to discover so it offers a lot of variety and has very good graphics

I see, thanks for your input!

I would like to ask you what Night of Revenge gameplay is like and what kind of game it is exactly? It looks like RPGM to me but without the pokemon style of sprites.

 

[Deleted member 5410619]

Hmm I see. So I get the impression that players are just tired of consuming the same kind of content in a routine where it's either grinding before actual content in terms of RPGM and when it comes to VN, some of the content feels mediocre without much thought process into creating it since in essence, anyone could slap a story with a visual and just have it be linear until the game ends.

Am I over assuming things? If I'm correct then I'll try to find a way around not to fall into these kind of games to develop. I won't lie, but I still might use RPGM or VN into creating my first game, or both. Just to cop a feel for an experience on what it's like to bring a storytelling experience to my players. I don't plan to make my game feel flat so I've been writing a lot of things down to possibly create a gameplay that would be fresh for players that want to enjoy the true essence of doing what you want to do when it comes to having sexual intercourse with the girls. I have a few ideas in mind, it's not nearly solid yet, but I do think it would make for an interesting gameplay... No doubt that it will require an immense amount of work though. I'll most likely will have to rely on building a team for it but honestly with no budget, I would struggle on doing so.

Correct and goodluck.

 

[Yazen_]

Visual novels are not games.
There just a glorified picture book with a (useally) poorly written story.
Rpgm are often just walking simulators.
Adding walking around to a linear story.

Both have a reputation for being just bad.

Believe it or not but gamers want to game.
We dont want to sit through a 5 hour story with 1 meaby 2 choices that mean dick all in the story.
We can read or watch a movie that is going to give us the same level of engament.

For example:
Imperial gatekeeper gameplay is very simple.
But it has gameplay.
And i am more interested in that then any of the billions of poorly written stories with pictures on the background.

Gamers want to game.

And before someone complains visual novels are populair.
That is because a lot of people on this site arent gamers.

Honestly reading all of this makes a lot of sense to me. Players play game because they want to immerse themselves in the gameplay. And for that, in porn games like this, it would be healthy for me to create a gameplay where the player could immerse theirselves as if they're doing the lewd act themself.

I have like 2 options of gameplay I could implement on my games in the future. But picking one would most likely depend on the art style I would be using. The first idea would be a turn based sexual battle where the player will be able to freely choose a sex move they want to initiate with the girl they are engaging with. The battle should be able to last until either of the person cums/gets defeated. It probably sounds silly but I know it would be something to see where it's not often available to other games.

The other idea.. Well I'll keep that to myself for now, it has a lot of thought process needed to be able to be developed and I'm sure it would bring a new level of realism with the game I'll be making.

 

[Nagozo]

I often find RPGM games frustrating to play, because unless the dev takes care to restrict the gameworld and gameplay to just what's needed, they often end up as large, empty, and repetitive. I also don't particularly enjoy sitting through the combat and menus.
Absolute Power Corruption is a good example of how to make RPGM work in my opinion. It's uncomplicated and gets straight to the point. You're encouraged to explore, but most things are easy to find since the maps are pretty small. The combat is basically rock-paper-scissors which offers just enough engagement to be called a game, but at least you don't have to spend tons of time clicking through the same 3 menus.

 

[Nagozo]

I have like 2 options of gameplay I could implement on my games in the future. But picking one would most likely depend on the art style I would be using. The first idea would be a turn based sexual battle where the player will be able to freely choose a sex move they want to initiate with the girl they are engaging with. The battle should be able to last until either of the person cums/gets defeated. It probably sounds silly but I know it would be something to see where it's not often available to other games.

There are a few games that do this and they're pretty succesful. The first ones that come to mind are Night Games, Monster Girl Dreams, and Lilith's Throne. These kinds of games are sometimes referred to as 'battlefuck' games, in case you want some reference material.

 

[Deleted member 5410619]

Honestly reading all of this makes a lot of sense to me. Players play game because they want to immerse themselves in the gameplay. And for that, in porn games like this, it would be healthy for me to create a gameplay where the player could immerse theirselves as if they're doing the lewd act themself.

I have like 2 options of gameplay I could implement on my games in the future. But picking one would most likely depend on the art style I would be using. The first idea would be a turn based sexual battle where the player will be able to freely choose a sex move they want to initiate with the girl they are engaging with. The battle should be able to last until either of the person cums/gets defeated. It probably sounds silly but I know it would be something to see where it's not often available to other games.

Already done:
https://f95zone.to/threads/liliths-throne-v0-4-6-7-innoxia.3564/

It is a good game.

EDIT:
Some good sex systems:
https://f95zone.to/threads/lab-rats-2-v0-51-1-vren.7260/
https://f95zone.to/threads/eratohok-2022-06-05-wamekukyouzin.7042/

You must be registered to see the links

This one is very simple but it gets the job done:
https://f95zone.to/threads/molesting-mother-final-sistny.32167/
The appeal is the risk of getting caught and the fear on the mother face.

 

[Winterfire]

Visual novels are not games.

Mostly false.
Visual Novels are games if you look up the definition of what a "Game" is.
However... Kinetic Novels or Visual Novels with fake choices are arguably games imho.

 

[Deleted member 5410619]

Visual Novels are games if you look up the definition of what a "Game" is

The offical definition is wrong.

 

[Winterfire]

The offical definition is wrong.

What is your definition of game then?

 

[Living In A Lewd World]

I personally think, that VNs are a vehicle that focuses more on storytelling than actual gaming. I'm personally a great fan of VNs and also sandbox-VNs. But I come more from real porn than actually gaming as my biggest problem with currently existing real porn is that the story-telling elements (if even existing) are mostly just bad executed. So it just mostly bores me to death. Many VN-creators are much more thoroughly and also creative in this regard. I must confess, I get much more excited of reading and watching some very good VNs as I have ever been when watching porn.

And again as formerly said. Even when some persons quite loudly saying that they don't like VNs, VNs are actually a quite popular format. I think, it is rather that there are so much existing VNs here, but only few good lewd games of other genres. So people who like to have a different game-genres may feel a bit left behind.

But one has to say to this, that with the existing engines it is way more time-intensive to create a decent game, that isn't a VN, as the process of doing so is much more complex.

The problem with RPGM-Games is in my opinion quite a different one, as you must see, that there are currently two main engines which are used to create lewd games, which are represented here on f95zon. Those are Ren'py and RPGM. There are also Unity, Unreal Engine, QSP, HTML and some lesser known ones. But there are actually quite few games who use them.

Ren'py is the most represented game-engine on f95. It has been mostly made for easily producing VNs.
RPGM is primarily made for generating 2D round-based role playing games, where you can walk around a map.

Now there are surely gamers who complain about VNs as well as RPGM-Games, as they might be not be satisfied with the 2D round-based rpg-games as well.
But I think, what is here more important is that there are many many VN-fans, who do rather want to have an easy to explore story than a complex world, you have to explore on your own to get your fap. I think, those are the majority of persons which complain about RPGM, as this is also a quite often used game engine. Of course, there are still easy to play games with RPGM and quite hard-to-play games with Ren'py. But it is not the majority of the games produced with the respective engine.

I personally confess, that I also rather play Ren'py games than RPGM-games and only one RPGM-game is currently on my favourite list and if I see an interesting RPGM-Game, I think two times about whether I download it or not. But this is still a thing of personal preference.

 

[Deleted member 5410619]

What is your definition of game then?

The ability to interact or alter things inside a virutal world.
A sword reducing health points or a spell mind control enemies.
A dialog that can convince or be rejected.
To be a game many different parts must work togather in unision to achieve an immersive expersiance that let you control the outcome by your actions.
A shooter is more then just firing bullets.
It is moving throught area's, sound, drop off, Item interaction(like if i shoot i cola can it shoud react to being hit)
Armor vs peneteration, Healthpools, Headshot, etc.
A game is by its very nature superior to all other forms of entertaiment because it is your skill not the story that decided the outcome.
Visual novels are in 99% of the cases just a single linear story where your choices(If you get them) mean nothing.
It would be like claiming picture's are movies just because you can use them to tell a story.

 

[Yazen_]

I myself like managment games.
Free city, stationmaster, Lab rats 2.
I enjoy building and corrupting.

As for what i like to see implemented in a porn game.
A few games systems i came up with over my long unlife:

Mind control system:
Everyone has willpower in this game.
The more willpower the less control you have.
Using the power of hypnosis the player opens a menu.
In the menu is the willpower bar and several options.
Willpower of 75+ can only be use to give the victem compulsions.
Stuff like feeling horny whenever your around or a strong urge to play with there boobs whenever they hear the word chicken.
Stuff that you resist doing in public.
This is the main way to lower willpower as every desire drains 1 willpower.
You get 10 willpower back per day.
50-75:
This is subconsions actions:
Think of stuff you do actomaticly and without thinking.
You could programme your victems to sleep naked or go to bed at 19:00 every night.
Have them sleepwalk or automatic grab there boobs when they see you.
These actions they do without thinking about it.
If they notice they can overwritte it by spending 2 willpower.
Again they only get 10 willpower a day.
25-50:
Reprogrammed.
You change there personality, how they think, how they feel.
But they are still very much a person.
This is ideal slave mode.
As you can programme them to be a devoted sex slave. A reluctant breeding doll, etc.
They will act to there personality and come up with there own idea's.
Meaby you made them a devoted sex slave and told them to corrupt your teacher.
They will try to carry out your orders to the best of there abilities.
This take 4 willpower to supress.
0-25:
There mindless drones.
Unable to do anything you dont programme in.
They dont think, They dont feel, They dont act.
They will only ever do there programming.
Meaning you need to program in when they eat, shit, sleep, etc.
The biggest advantage of drone mode is that they dont get bored.
They can stand still as a statue, watch for hours and perfectly recall everything you tell them to remember.
This require 8 to supress.

Now the trick is to balance the many different comands?
Programes?
As you want to keep them in a certain will area.
I also consider making willpower 0 a failstate.
Making them braindead and unable to do anything other then obey a direct command.
As they arent even able to follow a program or anything long term.
Making 0 will a failure state adds the challange to avoiding it.
Especialy when it is inreversable.

An other system for an other game i had in mind was:
Each of these have a limit of 100.

Education:
You use this to buy upgrade for your schools.
Class rooms, hiring teachers, etc.
This is raised by your students learning.

Political favor's:
This is your influence over politicians.
Think stuff like media manipulation, Getting the cops of your back, Changing laws.
You get this doing favor's for the powerful.

Criminal connections:
Your resource to buy less then legal or stuff you can not justify as school material.
Think bondage gear, a location for your whore students, Drug's, hypno tools, etc.
You get this by whoring out your students.

Heat: This is how close the cops are finding prove of your crimes.
If this reaches 100 you lose.

Damn this is impressive and well thought out. It could play very well for simulation games but the type of games I'm creating wouldn't be simulation ones. Still an interesting idea to implement regardless. Have you ever considered making your own game? I honestly would be interested if you did. But yeah, thanks for this! I might have to come up with my own gameplay in the future, I have something to look back on and be inspired with if anything. Corruption games are fun, and if I were to make one.. No, I'm sure I will lol. Funny enough it's already in my plans but for my first game's sequel.

I'm not sure if I want to share the game I'm planning to develop just yet. As much as I'm eager to, the idea could get stolen before I even get the chance to make it myself so I'm just hinting at things for now. But yeah, the game I'll be making will be an overall sex depraved exploration game with a linear story line, the MC will be sent into an unfamiliar place with familiar people. He will be conflicted because of his "relationship" with them but in that world, everything runs different. People will get violated and will violate and when the MC awakens his own sexual depravity, it will be the driving force that will develop his character which he will take with him when he returns to his place. The sequel will become a corruption game where he will bend the closest people around him to his will and trick them into submission to their carnal desires.

 

[Deleted member 5410619]

Have you ever considered making your own game?

I am too impatient to learn how to code then reread the code a billion times for that () i missed.

 

[Yazen_]

I often find RPGM games frustrating to play, because unless the dev takes care to restrict the gameworld and gameplay to just what's needed, they often end up as large, empty, and repetitive. I also don't particularly enjoy sitting through the combat and menus.
Absolute Power Corruption is a good example of how to make RPGM work in my opinion. It's uncomplicated and gets straight to the point. You're encouraged to explore, but most things are easy to find since the maps are pretty small. The combat is basically rock-papers-scissors which offers just enough engagement to be called a game, but at least you don't have to spend tons of time clicking through the same 3 menus.

I see, well I could agree with some RPGM games posing as a big game with empty and looping gameplay. It gets tiring a few hours in.

There are a few games that do this and they're pretty succesful. The first ones that come to mind are Night Games, Monster Girl Dreams, and Lilith's Throne. These kinds of games are sometimes referred to as 'battlefuck' games, in case you want some reference material.

Wow, thanks for the references! Well I'll look into these games later on and see what I can use and improve when it comes to developing mine. Honestly, I think I would add a couple more twists in my game mechanic, I already devised some interesting stuff to spice things up. I hope to make the gameplay fit well into the story I'm writing. Not just visually but also with the pacing. So that it would give the player time to be immersed and aroused with the situation in hand.