Views on Netorare

[Deleted member 609064]

Except that the cuck barely had a role in the old-school NTR stuff in Japan. The hardcore cuckolding fixation and the weirdass raceplay aspects we see today were more of a western thing, even though they have been seeping into the japanese works over time, too.

NTR was originally pretty much a parody/deconstruction of shounen romance. You know, these manga where you have a male MC and a heroine, and they share this extremely idealized, pure puppy love for each other, but it takes about 300 chapters before they even hold hands. And then hentai artists came along and thought "wouldn't it be funny if we introduce a completely awful character and take the girl away, perverting the 'pure love always wins' theme of shounen romance into 'big dick always wins'." That's why the initial NTR stuff were doujins based on shounen romance manga and dating sims that used the same tropes. NTR then became the #1 genre for corruption sickos like me, because you didn't just have the usual "pure heroine gets corrupted" scenario, you had a second layer of "pure love gets corrupted and destroyed" on top of it.

My main problem with the term nowadays is that it has become so fuzzy in online discussions. When you have some erotic work where the heroine accidently grazes the arm of another man than her bf/husband, people already scream "NTR!!". The insistence on western boards that NTR is exactly the same as cuckolding also doesn't help and always makes me wonder "why not use the english term, instead of the japanese term with a broader or even different meaning?"

Great post. Thank you.

I think a lot of people escalate their sexual and emotional insecurities into a justification for overreacting to cuckolding.

In my experience, people muddle terms when it suits their argument, not because they have any particular fidelity to honesty and reasonable argument. This thread makes a great case that aversion to NTR is emotional, not rational, despite the attempts to create rationalizing narratives against it.

 

[Tokita]

If two men fight over a woman, and the winner gets to fuck her, then where is her agency? Or her power?

The winner is perceived as superior on account of his victory and thus a more optimal choice to copulate with via female hypergamy. Her agency stems from being able to simply observe and choose "the best genes" at little to no personal risk. Her power stems from the very fact that they are willing to compete for her, winner take all.

It seems that she's just a sex toy, an object.

In practice, the line between empowerment and objectification is whether or note she benefits. And she is perfectly capable of leveraging (or withholding) her sexuality to that end.

And the end result is very close to rape, either way.

Which only serves to put him at risk of a retroactive accusation going forward. Even the so-called winner stands to lose depending on how he makes her feel after the fact.

If the woman were to actively seek out her bull and aggressively come after him, that would be different, but then the cuck is more or less inconsequential.

Yet doing so would invalidate any plausible deniability she might otherwise have. For example, her pursuit of the bull would clearly designate her as the villain who was looking to cheat on the cuck. The silver lining of being an object is near blanket exemption from accountability.

 

[Deleted member 609064]

The winner is perceived as superior on account of his victory and thus a more optimal choice to copulate with via female hypergamy. Her agency stems from being able to simply observe and choose "the best genes" at little to no personal risk. Her power stems from the very fact that they are willing to compete for her, winner take all.

Very few bros understand women's side of the sexual dynamic. So cool to see someone talking about hypergamy, which is a big part of NTR from my point of view.

 

[sonhot]

You know, these manga where you have a male MC and a heroine, and they share this extremely idealized, pure puppy love for each other, but it takes about 300 chapters before they even hold hands. And then hentai artists came along and thought "wouldn't it be funny if we introduce a completely awful character and take the girl away, perverting the 'pure love always wins' theme of shounen romance into 'big dick always wins'."

Then what you're into is corruption, not netorare and as i've said, female protagonist rpgs got that kink covered as many of them have a boyfriend/husband who barely appear ingame. True netorare imo has always been about the cuck male protagonist who play the major role of helplessly watching his loved one drifting away from him slowly. I agree that the meaning of netorare is now all over the place.

While i do dislike freaking flustered kids in those pure love manga, i dislike nasty mofos and scheming bastards just as much.
The former are extremely annoying with their exaggerated shyness and self-inflicted drama while the latter are just equally bad with their smug attitude and their signature "kukuku" laugh. They are both equally extreme just in different ways, and it's been way too popular for a long time already.
Imo both of these type are loser and deserve to be cucked by a protagonist like in

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doujin .

 

[DS23G]

Then what you're into is corruption, not netorare and as i've said, female protagonist rpgs got that kink covered as many of them have a boyfriend/husband who barely appear ingame. True netorare imo has always been about the cuck male protagonist who play the major role of helplessly watching his loved one drifting away from him slowly.

And I did point out that, originally, NTR wasn't cuck focused, so saying "true netorare has always been about the cuck" is simply wrong, sorry. More and more works marked as NTR and focused on the cuck popped up over time, but what I'd call "classic NTR" was centered around the women and their gradual corruption, from loyal wife/gf to devoted cumdumpster of the antagonist. Even nowadays, that type of NTR is the majority in Japan, followed by what could be described as "50/50 POV" NTR, where the focus is both on the woman's and the cuck's inner turmoil. Cuck focus only stories are a clear minority in Japan, unlike the west, where cuckolding as a porn genre predates NTR.

But I guess you could tell Sanbun Kyoden that most of his earlier NTR work is, in fact, not NTR, because it almost entirely focused on the women. Despite the fact that those stories were instrumental in popularizing and defining the genre in Japan.

 

[aattss]

Different people like NTR for different reasons and different works of NTR express different aspects of NTR.

Personally, when someone says "this is the true way people enjoy NTR", I often find that what they say doesn't generalize to me.

 

[Deleted member 609064]

Different people like NTR for different reasons and different works of NTR express different aspects of NTR.

Personally, when someone says "this is the true way people enjoy NTR", I often find that what they say doesn't generalize to me.

This is true for most subjective preferences. We love to create a sense of superiority for OUR preference.

 

[galanti]

I like NTR when my character does it to the other guy. But definitely not the other way around.

 

[desmosome]

Then what you're into is corruption, not netorare and as i've said, female protagonist rpgs got that kink covered as many of them have a boyfriend/husband who barely appear ingame. True netorare imo has always been about the cuck male protagonist who play the major role of helplessly watching his loved one drifting away from him slowly. I agree that the meaning of netorare is now all over the place.

While i do dislike freaking flustered kids in those pure love manga, i dislike nasty mofos and scheming bastards just as much.
The former are extremely annoying with their exaggerated shyness and self-inflicted drama while the latter are just equally bad with their smug attitude and their signature "kukuku" laugh. They are both equally extreme just in different ways, and it's been way too popular for a long time already.
Imo both of these type are loser and deserve to be cucked by a protagonist like in

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doujin .

I just fapped to that manga. It was pretty great so thanks for the assist.

Here's some food for thought. Let's imagine the same exact panels but with the MC/narrator being changed to the bullied kid. Would that suddenly make the whole thing distasteful for you? Well, this has some good vibes going around and it would be closer to netorase if we switched the narrator, but you get the idea.

For many people who are into hentai doujins/manga, there isn't really a big difference between netori, NTR, cheating, mind break. All these tags generally feature women getting hooked on some big dick mind breaking sex and falling into depravity. The corruption, moral degeneration, and general male dom vibes in these tags are what gets us off.

You could say that what we are into first and foremost is the corruption, and I personally would agree with you there. I like to see women, especially strong women, lose to some dick and just fall as low as possible. Believe it or not, NTR tag has the highest chance to produce this type of plot (for hentai; not really on F95zone cus most of it is western devs that don't know how to do NTR). I also search for mind break tag on hentai sites for the same reason.

You could say that corruption is the big umbrella in which NTR is a subset. NTR often adds it's own flavor to normal corruption aspects such as falling so low as to abandon her son/husband/bf. Going being their backs. Talking shit about their loved ones. Etc.

A similar situation might be something like romance and dating sim. Dating sims are generally romance, but it add's it's own little flair to it too.

In the end, people enjoy stuff for different reasons. Some people are true cucks that get off on self insertion. Others are just observing from a bird eye's view. Some people can switch it up as they see fit depending on the particular material they are dealing with.

I'll give a personal example, there are occasionally first person view NTR JAVs or doujin/manga that focus solely on the cuck's POV (watching stuff through DVDs that get sent, watching through some internet stream, spying, etc). I have dabbled in trying to self insert on the cuck with these types of works and I can kind of see it. Not really jealously, because no matter what I do, I can never truly think any of this shit is happening to me, but more like 'damn... if she was my girlfriend and she's doing this.. it would be so fucked up and depraved.' It's a bit like watching horror movies where we can get exposed to negative emotions in a controlled environment.

On the flip side, I am really into male dom stuff too, where the alpha MC just takes all the chicks wit his massive dick. But it HAS to be framed correctly. I don't want some romance harem shit where everyone is lovey dovey. Basically, if you imagine the antagonist of an NTR game and make him the MC, I am all for that. I've self inserted (or not) on these too and, of course, the appeal is easier to understand here. Power fantasy.

If the hentai or game is not particularly geared towards first person insertion, there is no point in doing so, and I can get just as much enjoyment out of things b just watching things unfold from above.

Now if the writing is especially good, I can even get into a story regardless of kinks. I won't fap to it, but I will certainly enjoy it.

edit: Oh and as far as female protag corruption stuff, it doesn't quite scratch the itch most of the time. These games are usually framed in such a way that the female protagonist is actively searching for corruption. She has too much agency, as ironic as that may sound lol. Even in the most absurd idiot in lecherville tropes, the female protagonist will just go into that alley, or follow that old hobo essentially with the intent to get raped. Many times, they will nonchalantly agree to prostitution and what not to raise her lewd stats or whatever (all ONEONE1 games). It just doesn't have the same feel to it you know. That said, I've enjoyed my fair share of female protag corruption games too.

 

[greenlittleman]

It is really funny how OP stated that "it is not a popular genre", but votes prove otherwise, lol. Amongst "emotional fetishes" ntr is one of the most popular ones, losing only to incest in the west (Japanese aren't so fixed about it, but if you check pornhub, then all the most popular vids are with incest, it is a western thing).

Let me explain to everyone why netorare is such a strong fetish when it comes to masturbation. While playing the game it doesn't really matter to you if with whom you associate yourself - it isn't you either way. So by associating yourself both with the one who gets ntred and with the one who steals a girl you get the best out of two worlds. From a cuckold, you get the emotional investment in a heroine. And from ntr-guy you get the feeling of dominating her through sex, by making a girl submit to you. This is why people enjoy ntr even if they wouldn't want to experience cuckold IRL. It is very simple. You can get two roles at once - the role of a loving boyfriend and the role of an asshole who just uses women for his satisfaction. You get two girls at once - a kind and caring girlfriend and a kinky submissive slut. This is why netorare is so good. The problem with people who can't enjoy it is that they can't associate themselves with both dudes - they either can't emotionally invest or enjoy domination.

 

[tanstaafl]

There's a lot of discussion about what NTR is on this site and one of my favorite hobbies is trying to guess how much exposure to NTR the person has and in what format. Sometimes it's obvious that there has been very little exposure, they're the ones saying that NTR is only about cucks. Sometimes they go into the history like they looked up the wiki on NTR or something.

The only thing that bothers me about NTR at all is the trope of raping a girl until she likes it, not the destruction of love, but the belief that you can actually convince or break a girl into liking you with a big pee pee and rape. I've truly enjoyed some NTR stories, but when it comes to that I have to wonder just who actually gets behind that kind of thing. And even worse, who actually thinks that's possible?

 

[DS23G]

The only thing that bothers me about NTR at all is the trope of raping a girl until she likes it, not the destruction of love, but the belief that you can actually convince or break a girl into liking you with a big pee pee and rape. I've truly enjoyed some NTR stories, but when it comes to that I have to wonder just who actually gets behind that kind of thing. And even worse, who actually thinks that's possible?

I'm generally not a fan of NTR starting of with violent rape either. That's the main issue with writing NTR: I have this heroine who is in a lovey dovey relationship with her significant other, but I somehow have to get her into a sexual relationship with another guy. I can't just have her freely jump on the antagonists dick, since she's written to be pure and dedicated to her lover, so she's not supposed to want to get with other guys. So that's where, unfortunately, the "rape em till you break em" trope comes into play quite often.

I admit that some form of coercion often seems necessary to break the knot at the beginning of the story, but I prefer it to be something like semi-blackmail. These two stories are a good example of that:

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In both stories the heroine doesn't necessarily have to agree to become the antagonists playtoy, she could just say no. But it's understandable to the reader why she'd do it, the choice doesn't destroy her loving wife character from the get-go. In fact, she kinda does it in both stories to protect her husband.
This kind of NTR build-up is also what I'm going for in the NTR route of my game, where an initial home invasion situation will develop some sort of stockholm syndrome within the heroine, depending on the choices the player takes.

About the "big dick makes girls enjoy themselves at some point, even if raped" trope. Yeah, the prevalence of that in NTR really hammers home that this is originally a hentai genre, since that trope is so damn dominant in hentai (and even in stuff that some might consider vanilla), that I don't even bat an eye or question it anymore. Consuming alot of hentai (and JAV) over your lifetime does that to you. I doubt anyone reading or watching this stuff really believes it works like that irl though.

 

[tanstaafl]

I'm generally not a fan of NTR starting of with violent rape either. That's the main issue with writing NTR: I have this heroine who is in a lovey dovey relationship with her significant other, but I somehow have to get her into a sexual relationship with another guy. I can't just have her freely jump on the antagonists dick, since she's written to be pure and dedicated to her lover, so she's not supposed to want to get with other guys. So that's where, unfortunately, the "rape em till you break em" trope comes into play quite often.

I admit that some form of coercion often seems necessary to break the knot at the beginning of the story, but I prefer it to be something like semi-blackmail. These two stories are a good example of that:

You must be registered to see the links

You must be registered to see the links

You must be registered to see the links

is the kind of NTR that I like. The story is basically a newlywed couple moves in with the guy's father. Unfortunately, the wife previously had a one night stand with the father (before the couple had even met each other). The father does not rape the girl, but he's fairly aggressive with her. Something I kind of call a 'hard seduction'. In the end, she doesn't leave the guy (he never even finds out), but has fully given in to the father and intends to keep on keeping on.

Many stories would have just gone with no previous backstory and rape, despite the fact that dropping this backstory took less than five seconds. Simply one line of script eliminated the need for rape. So, as you say, sometimes the "rape 'em until you break 'em" trope is the easy way out, it's is by no means necessary for a story to proceed. But, it's also some people's kink, so there you go.

 

[DS23G]

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is the kind of NTR that I like. The story is basically a newlywed couple moves in with the guy's father. Unfortunately, the wife previously had a one night stand with the father (before the couple had even met each other). The father does not rape the girl, but he's fairly aggressive with her. Something I kind of call a 'hard seduction'. In the end, she doesn't leave the guy (he never even finds out), but has fully given in to the father and intends to keep on keeping on.

Many stories would have just gone with no previous backstory and rape, despite the fact that dropping this backstory took less than five seconds. Simply one line of script eliminated the need for rape. So, as you say, sometimes the "rape 'em until you break 'em" trope is the easy way out, it's is by no means necessary for a story to proceed. But, it's also some peoples kink, so there you go.

Yeah, Shinozuka Yuuji usually does a decent job not getting super rapey with his NTR.

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being another example. Not gonna lie though, I'd probably be more critical of the writing here (especially with the wife going along with everything way too easily once they're in the car) if the art wasn't so damn good. But that happens to be the

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than I'd like to admit.

 

[tanstaafl]

Yeah, Shinozuka Yuuji usually does a decent job not getting super rapey with his NTR.

You must be registered to see the links

being another example. Not gonna lie though, I'd probably be more critical of the writing here (especially with the wife going along with everything way too easily once they're in the car) if the art wasn't so damn good. But that happens to be the

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You must be registered to see the links

than I'd like to admit.

Honestly, I thought the shower scene was weaker writing than the car, but it's two 15 minute hentai vids. Can't expect super developed "plot" so some shortcuts are needed. The "case" link is probably my least favorite example of rapey NTR. The "motivation" is not the girl, but to literally destroy happiness. I'll never understand that kink at all.

 

[Deleted member 609064]

The only thing that bothers me about NTR at all is the trope of raping a girl until she likes it, not the destruction of love, but the belief that you can actually convince or break a girl into liking you with a big pee pee and rape. I've truly enjoyed some NTR stories, but when it comes to that I have to wonder just who actually gets behind that kind of thing. And even worse, who actually thinks that's possible?

Being serious, there are many women who get a less than consensual introduction to sex often from a family member or family friend. I don't think it often plays out like Netorare, although if you talk to sex abuse survivors, they can develop complex and surprising relationships with sex and the person who abused them.

I'm generally not a fan of NTR starting of with violent rape either. That's the main issue with writing NTR: I have this heroine who is in a lovey dovey relationship with her significant other, but I somehow have to get her into a sexual relationship with another guy. I can't just have her freely jump on the antagonists dick, since she's written to be pure and dedicated to her lover, so she's not supposed to want to get with other guys. So that's where, unfortunately, the "rape em till you break em" trope comes into play quite often.

I admit that some form of coercion often seems necessary to break the knot at the beginning of the story, but I prefer it to be something like semi-blackmail. These two stories are a good example of that:

You must be registered to see the links

You must be registered to see the links

In both stories the heroine doesn't necessarily have to agree to become the antagonists playtoy, she could just say no. But it's understandable to the reader why she'd do it, the choice doesn't destroy her loving wife character from the get-go. In fact, she kinda does it in both stories to protect her husband.

This kind of NTR build-up is also what I'm going for in the NTR route of my game, where an initial home invasion situation will develop some sort of stockholm syndrome within the heroine, depending on the choices the player takes.

I am also working on a couple of stories with Netorare in them. Women like sex, and many women like "good dick". I have many female friends who lament putting up with and even supporting crappy men because they were good in the sack, and that doesn't always mean well-hung.

Women cheat. Women desire good sex. Instead of worrying about the female being too slutty (jumping on a dick), perhaps deconstruct her relationship with her hubby/BF and find the weak areas that she might want to exploit to justify cheating.

Women have an amazing capacity to rationalize their sexual decisions in a way that men usually cannot. That's how a girl can slut it up in HS while wearing a promise ring and then go to college and blow her professor for a passing grade while keeping a steady boyfriend she talks about marriage with and never seeing any contradiction. Ask any 25-year-old woman how many men she has had sex with and it will probably be 2 or 3x as many as a 25-year-old male. And that's if she's honest, which women rarely are when it comes to partner counts because they know how fragile the male ego can be.

 

[tanstaafl]

Being serious, there are many women who get a less than consensual introduction to sex often from a family member or family friend. I don't think it often plays out like Netorare, although if you talk to sex abuse survivors, they can develop complex and surprising relationships with sex and the person who abused them.

Yeah, we're talking about adults with fully developed brains here. If I found someone who actually thought about breaking in people of the age you are talking about I'd personally light them on fire, after flaying them.

 

[215303j]

Yeah, we're talking about adults here. If I found someone who actually thought about breaking in people of the age you are talking about I'd personally light them on fire, after flaying them.

Not disagreeing with that, but you do assume that all adult women have fully stable personalities.
In reality a lot of women (and men) can be in vulnerable positions and can easily be influenced, just like a teenager can.

Age of consent (or age of adulthood) is fairly arbitrary, some people below the age limit can meaningfully consent to sex, while others still can't consent even when well above that age. It also depends on circumstances, moods, hormonal balance etc. etc.

Of course, "influencing" them doesn't mean raping them with your horse cock until they love it.

 

[tanstaafl]

Not disagreeing with that, but you do assume that all adult women have fully stable personalities.
In reality a lot of women (and men) can be in vulnerable positions and can easily be influenced, just like a teenager can.

Age of consent (or age of adulthood) is fairly arbitrary, some people below the age limit can meaningfully consent to sex, while others still can't consent even when well above that age. It also depends on circumstances, moods, hormonal balance etc. etc.

Of course, "influencing" them doesn't mean raping them with your horse cock until they love it.

That's the trick. Aggressive seduction, dominant corruption, negging, etc, these are all things that will fill the NTR niche and are actual real methods used by real people. IRL they're assholes, but still. Raping people with giant dicks until they like it is not a thing. It has never been a thing. This covers 99.99% of all humans, this isn't even debatable. Just because there's that .01% that are so fucked in the head from previous traumas doesn't make it a thing.

 

[DS23G]

The "motivation" is not the girl, but to literally destroy happiness. I'll never understand that kink at all.

Well, that's why NTR has been generally treated more as a corruption than a cuckolding genre in hentai. Like I pointed out in a previous post, the genre has its roots as a parodic perversion of the shounen romance genre and its highly idealized potrayal of true love.

Women cheat. Women desire good sex. Instead of worrying about the female being too slutty (jumping on a dick), perhaps deconstruct her relationship with her hubby/BF and find the weak areas that she might want to exploit to justify cheating.

Problem is that I'm into it for the corruption, so if she's out there hunting for dick and/or her relationship is already cold, it becomes just cheating to me and not the NTR I'm looking for. At the end of the day, this is a sexual fantasy and I'm not overly concerned with hyperrealism (and neither are most porn/hentai games if we're honest. I mean, half of all h-games would have to have entire sections that deal with the heroines post-rape traumata if that was the case).

Are super idealized relationships where both partners knew each other from childhood, never have been with other people and are still in love after decades, common in the real world? Nope. Should that stop authors from setting up a relationship like that, with a "pure" heroine being the MC, as the base of a corruption-focused NTR story? Hell no.