jillgates

Member
Game Developer
Oct 10, 2017
171
383
>African

Sure, I get that. I can trace my family back a thousand years and more but...if somebody were to push a game based on the fiction that surrounds my family, damn. I'd be SUPER pissed.

The honest truth is this was always aimed at a Western European culture, "King Arthur," era, which was when my family ######.

At present, thanks to the amazing feedback from here, I'm figuring out how to change the title.

>not giving a fuck

Hm, could be - I would like the opportunity to discuss this privately...selfishly, I think I have a lot of the right boxes checked.

But if not, fuck me and I'd be happy to edit everything that's public or private about my game. Was never, EVER my intention to make people feel like their culture had been raped.
 
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yoyomistro

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Jan 15, 2017
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>African

Sure, I get that. I can trace my family back a thousand years and more but...if somebody were to push a game based on the fiction that surrounds my family, damn. I'd be SUPER pissed.

The honest truth is this was always aimed at a Western European culture, "King Arthur," era, which was when my family ######.

At present, thanks to the amazing feedback from here, I'm figuring out how to change the title.

>not giving a fuck

Hm, could be - I would like the opportunity to discuss this privately...selfishly, I think I have a lot of the right boxes checked.

But if not, fuck me and I'd be happy to edit everything that's public or private about my game. Was never, EVER my intention to make people feel like their culture had been raped.
Cool, it's just that a lot of people do this sort of thing without realizing it. I moved to the US when I was young and I got a lot of really ignorant questions so I'm not personally offended by stuff like this, but as I got older I realized how ignorance around other cultures created a generally toxic atmosphere in this country and got more sensitive about things like that. Sorry if it felt like I was attacking you personally; I just don't really have as much patience when dealing with stuff like this as I used to.
 

jillgates

Member
Game Developer
Oct 10, 2017
171
383
And, yoyomistro, did you have an immigrant as a partner?

They were young too when experiencing the US for the first time.

Tell me: Did you get the same prejudice based on religion?
 
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yoyomistro

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Jan 15, 2017
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And, yoyomistro, did you have an immigrant as a partner?

They were young too when experiencing the US for the first time.

Tell me: Did you get the same prejudice based on religion?
I don't currently to the first question. And for the second not really, but I know people who have. Like I said it's not so much about me and my experience as it is about an awareness in general. I don't want to get too specific about myself as I use this handle in different places so I don't want to put identifying information. But if people insist on using a historical context for their work they should know they are influencing the way others think about the culture their work is based in. Like I said in my pm though it's your game and you can go wherever you want with it. I'm not here to berate people, so sorry if I was a bit harsh. If you want advice on specifics, I'm sure the other people who've given some advice the directions you could go in and I would be happy to help you with research.
 

Amariithynar

Member
Oct 26, 2017
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I get what you mean, Yoyomistro. I'm Polish/German by descent (second generation) and spent a lot of time learning about other cultures when I was younger, and I've seen ignorance of them all around me as I grew up, and I'm not in the US. I wouldn't say that it leads to a toxic atmosphere, however, but that it leads to a very ignorant one, where people only know what the media gives them of the culture of other places, and what people from those places tell them themselves. Most people live their lives in an area so small that even the thought of going travelling to some place across the world is decidedly foreign to them, and often not entirely by choice, but because of what few opportunities they've had, and how most aspects of their lives have been so close-knit to home because of that. I hope you've realized that as well, and that a lot of their misconceptions are because of clickbaity media that only portray other countries in their politically biased manners. Doesn't make their misconceptions correct, but it does add the context to their ignorance that shows it not to usually be of the willful variety.
 

yoyomistro

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Jan 15, 2017
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I get what you mean, Yoyomistro. I'm Polish/German by descent (second generation) and spent a lot of time learning about other cultures when I was younger, and I've seen ignorance of them all around me as I grew up, and I'm not in the US. I wouldn't say that it leads to a toxic atmosphere, however, but that it leads to a very ignorant one, where people only know what the media gives them of the culture of other places, and what people from those places tell them themselves. Most people live their lives in an area so small that even the thought of going travelling to some place across the world is decidedly foreign to them, and often not entirely by choice, but because of what few opportunities they've had, and how most aspects of their lives have been so close-knit to home because of that. I hope you've realized that as well, and that a lot of their misconceptions are because of clickbaity media that only portray other countries in their politically biased manners. Doesn't make their misconceptions correct, but it does add the context to their ignorance that shows it not to usually be of the willful variety.
Yea, most of the ignorance I've seen personally hasn't been too malicious, although some of it has. But I've seen enough of it to know that way too large of a percentage of it is. The fact is that we are animals, and ignorance creates bias which creates malice. Also the US is a bit different from other countries. Other countries are inherently prone to bias because the population tends to be homogeneous. I know I've had to admonish or correct my parents on a few stereotypes they've engaged in about other people since they grew up in our country in Africa. Not because they wanted to be malicious, but because based on where and who they grew up with they didn't know any better, and they are educated people. The US has a mixed population except in states that are largely rural or poor so I feel like if you choose to segregate yourself here and engage in ignorance that's a reflection on you. But in the US conservative media does purposefully gin up hatred against non-western European cultures, and the media (annoyingly so sometimes children's media as well) promotes certain stereotypes.
 
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Burt

Ignoring Social Media
Dec 14, 2016
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I am Japanese and I don't give a fuck if you bastardize my entire culture its a fucking game play it or don't
Fuck sake is this a general forum or a game thread sensitive as a balloon near a needle
 

hopeless

Member
Oct 29, 2017
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I am Japanese and I don't give a fuck if you bastardize my entire culture its a fucking game play it or don't
Fuck sake is this a general forum or a game thread sensitive as a balloon near a needle
you japanese doesn't give a fuck in anything. you are obsessed by the procedure of the sexual intercourse... no matter if it's done by tentacle monster or succubuss-police-officer-shemales...
western world people rather love to go astray in historically correct tales. we need the historically facts to get laid. you may say we are cursed, but you rather love to imagine a fox/fish monstrosity futa cyborg fucks an elven magican shemale with a horsecock.
so let people discuss. the discussion is very related to the game here. and important!
 

yoyomistro

Engaged Member
Jan 15, 2017
2,679
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I am Japanese and I don't give a fuck if you bastardize my entire culture its a fucking game play it or don't
Fuck sake is this a general forum or a game thread sensitive as a balloon near a needle
That's cool, nobody's saying everyone gives a fuck or should but the people who do are pointing things out. Besides the dev might lose a few potential patrons who might otherwise be interested but are turned off by the inaccuracies but won't come on a forum like here or otherwise say anything. She can chose to listen to criticism or not to listen, that's her prerogative. I'm not a fan of snowflakes coming on forums and bitching about stuff, like the NTR folks who seem to take offense at anyone other than the male protagonist having intercourse with any of their potential interests in games, but this is a forum and we are using it for it's intended purpose.
 
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muttdoggy

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Aug 6, 2016
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Now... @jillgates and @yoyomistro were having a conversation about how naming games can lead to misconceptions or worse. I understand both their points. Now they should go ahead and continue this as long as they need because they are trying to be respectful, which is encouraged. I applaud you both for that and @Amariithynar for a good response to that, as well.
Here's my 2 cents.. I am American of celtic/scandinavian descent. Due to my history studies in school, I'm somewhat knowledgeable of medieval times. Kids and children were at times traded, especially Royal children since they were use to "cement" alliances. This could be a story of the Later spice road time when a European noble traded children with a Persian king. This was done to assure neither would sabotage the other and that they would trade fair prices. Eventually, both children liked it and remained where they are. This could turn into a slight or mini history lesson about people trading each other durin those times. That story would not need much alteration. I know this is possible because there are verified accounts of the Celts, Goths, Vikings, Romans, Ottomans, and the Greeks messing with each other over the spice route during that time. It went from the salt mines in Spain and France all the way to the spices of India and Persia. The only kink in that is there were virtually no European sailors in Persia until the 1500s at the earliest unless they went by land and did local trading since the Arabs and Africans dominated the Red Sea route. The good news, we still had castles, swords, ships and were developing guns during the 1500s.

@Burt and @hopeless - Chill out!
We don't need hotheads stirring the pot!
 

muttdoggy

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Aug 6, 2016
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One other option I'd recommend is to simply change the name of the area.. just one word.
How about Princess of Conwy? It's a castle built in Wales in the 1400s.
Or some fastastical name like Princess of Jillgates?
 
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Amariithynar

Member
Oct 26, 2017
430
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Yea, most of the ignorance I've seen personally hasn't been too malicious, although some of it has. But I've seen enough of it to know that way too large of a percentage of it is. The fact is that we are animals, and ignorance creates bias which creates malice. Also the US is a bit different from other countries. Other countries are inherently prone to bias because the population tends to be homogeneous. I know I've had to admonish or correct my parents on a few stereotypes they've engaged in about other people since they grew up in our country in Africa. Not because they wanted to be malicious, but because based on where and who they grew up with they didn't know any better, and they are educated people. The US has a mixed population except in states that are largely rural or poor so I feel like if you choose to segregate yourself here and engage in ignorance that's a reflection on you. But in the US conservative media does purposefully gin up hatred against non-western European cultures, and the media (annoyingly so sometimes children's media as well) promotes certain stereotypes.
It's not just the right-wing media that pulls shit like that. Both sides have their own propagandistic view of events and tell them according to that. Where you see them showing other cultures negatively is with cultures that actively cause harm to US people and US interests, at least from my experience looking at them with a historical point of view, (Muslim and North Korean, currently), and there they just showcase negative events that involves that culture, so it does at least make sense in that manner. Left-wing media does the same thing, too, though you more often see a guilt by association trip from them rather than the right-wing stuff. Still, when they tend to screw up it tends to be really, really bad (remember the "sexbox" bullshit on Fox?), so it makes it seem that they're only a caricature of themselves when that shit's all you hear about, to be fair. Far-axis alternative media (right and left) does the same, though with different targets, but also is way more willing to twist the truth rather than just have their own biases (which is sad enough; I miss objectivity in news media), so I wouldn't trust them, either.

If you had to correct your parents on stereotypes, then they weren't stereotypes but caricatures, no? Because while a stereotype may be overly simplistic, they're not inherently wrong, either; just a generalization based on commonly shared characteristics within a population, like Jewish noses, or Canadians and pronouncing it "aboot" instead of "about", and many other similar things. On the other hand are caricatures, propaganda-created false stereotypes then shown in various media, to engender negative feelings about a group, usually for purposes of war. An example of such would be like the WWII posters featuring people with hyper-exaggerated Japanese features in a overly negative light, as if any Japanese person would act like that, when it was far from the truth.

You say "If you choose to segregate yourself here..." as if they have a choice, my friend. Most people do not, in fact, have a choice, because they're too poor to do so, even if they want to. That's even before you take into account lack of wage increases and rising cost of living that pressure them even further to remain within their local communities. This happens even within cities, where people live their lives within just a few dozen blocks connected by public transit, if they're lucky, or walking distance, if they aren't. It happens most especially with those people that have family they need to take care of and help support, just like they were taken care of and supported by them when their situation was even worse. Even those who leave home to strike out on their own basically do the same thing wherever it is that they end up, just with a looser network of friends rather than a network of family. It's really only the coastal elite in politics and big business that can afford to travel further, the same ones who just call rural states "flyover country" with a sneer, ignoring the economic reasons for it being in such a place in the first place.

Lastly, rural and poor areas may be less demographically diverse, coming in at 22% vs. 36% NWD for cities, but consider what that's saying- that these people are so poor that refugee immigrants are treated better than they are. It's not hard to see why they'd be bitter about that, either.

Anyways, as the conversation has gotten off from discussing Jillgates' game specifically and more towards politics in general, if we want to continue this conversation we should do so in a separate thread, or over PMs.
 

jillgates

Member
Game Developer
Oct 10, 2017
171
383
Thanks for the "Princess of Comwy," idea, @mutdoggy.

I put together a final list of new titles (and yep, this has been eye opening, I *love* the feedback). If nobody cared, I'm sure I'd have gotten less votes & feedback on the title. Though "Romancing the Kingdom," some people might not appreciate because again, I'm aping something I like (game from another publisher).
 
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jillgates

Member
Game Developer
Oct 10, 2017
171
383
So it looks like "Romancing the Kingdom," might end up the new title.

Personally, I thought this one, "Royal Rivalry: The Captain Is Coming," is more clever but perhaps sounds a bit too porn-centric?
 

UncleVT

Låt den rätta komma in
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Jul 2, 2017
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I like Princess heir or something similar that indicate she has aspirations to a throne doesn't matter which one.
 

Amariithynar

Member
Oct 26, 2017
430
448
So it looks like "Romancing the Kingdom," might end up the new title.

Personally, I thought this one, "Royal Rivalry: The Captain Is Coming," is more clever but perhaps sounds a bit too porn-centric?
HAH! I like the punny one. Nothing wrong with a good play on words, be it pornographic or otherwise.
 

Pedoune

Member
Jul 19, 2017
215
303
Yeah, I'd really prefer the title not to be so misleading. Having greenery is one thing (Persians were pretty damn good at irrigation and could do wonders with limited water supplies, and some bits of the old empire were rather lush), but every bit of building, furniture, clothing and people looking like what you'd see at a Minnesota renaissance fair (well OK, the people are better looking) is another.

It's rather disappointing, really; you just don't see decent Ancient Middle-East-themed porn games very often IMO (that said if I'm wrong feel free to correct me).
 
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