Alternatives to Patreon - Maybe for Adult games

[Benn Swagger]

I'd like to point out I'm not speculating about what I said: I worked with Kimochi before their Steam-like software was available and I even sold my games through it. I got kicked out when they got bought by Nutaku cause loli and bestiality where no more allowed.

Thanks for pointing about that. But what I was saying is for the allegation Kimochi will owning your games IP (Intellectual Property).

 

[Ignazzio]

Hm... So to you a loli isn't a straight underage depiction? Why so? Are you actually meaning that you oppose 2D to 3D?

And as strange as it can sound, the fetish being the most feared isn't underage but bestiality. BOTH in Japan and US.

In Japan, bestiality is a banned keyword on sites like DLsite or DMM. While those sell loli stuff without any problem (And I'm not talking 13 years old lolis...). And in the US, mangagamer refused to sell my game because there's bestiality while they sell loli stuff (like

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or

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) Do I need to mention that games like Euphoria (also starring technically underaged characters since they're high schoolers) are also okay cause they ONLY picture torture and snuff? 8D

So no, the biggest problem is bestiality. As it looks like, there are more and more sites that consider this particular fetish to be THE fetish to ban D:

Don't get me wrong - I like lolis. But I've never seen any to be openly underage - they never mention their actual age. Ofc it's obvious that many of them is underage but being honest about that isn't something usual. Whole definition of loli doesn't necesarily mean underage as well as it deals with outer appearence. If you would create western game in which you would say this girl is 13 It would really took you into a deep shit in many places. The biggest western playerbase isn't in USA but Europe and I dare to say I wouldn't be able to create any underage porn game in my fairly big european country. While loli can be taken as an exotic stylistic, western games can't afford that without being associated with pedos. Bestiality is different as one of the few it doesn't have Japanese society approval. Mangagamer is trying to mimic their market so they can't let it go as well I suppose. Moreover it wouldn't sell enough to compensate for a broken image of a company. It's such a niche we had a Patreon to promote it before.
And I do agree about furry being something different. It's more like aliens or weird humans so it's perceived in a different way. Furry is one of the top fetishes out there as well while bestiality isn't really a thing.
I wonder if anyone here know how Enty's guideline deals with those things? Being Japanese doesn't mean it allows everything

 

[IvoryOwl]

Not going to lie, sounds to me like you're defending their "open mindedness". I'm lost here but aren't you supposed to set the rules for a website like this from the very beginning or was the money from these 'dirty' projects too sweet to pass up, now that they've grown bigger and 'clean' companies started noticing their presence, it seems to me like they want to get rid of their past and render their image like that of a virgin princess that everyone wants to marry and have babies with.

From what I found on the subject (though I could be wrong) is that they have always been against pornography but their lack of assertiveness and vague guidelines on the matter is what created a grey area that people immediately took advantage of. This entire mess is Patreon's fault, yes, because they left it like that for years and didn't do anything until the adult community grew too large to ignore. People are upset and rightfully so in that front.

But I'm also of the mindset that if, assuming they are true to their words and Patreon was never meant to crowdfund pornography, then they are only adjusting the guidelines in accordance to those beliefs and kicking the people who were trying out their luck on a website that never openly supported their endeavors. Using Patreon to crowdfund pornography was a risky choice from the beginning.

So why didn't the company do anything before? I don't know. Its possible you're right and they indeed took advantage of the people, waited until they were famous and rich enough to safely dispose of the "dirt" now. If that is it then they are indeed selfish assholes but at the same time makes sense, even if it is draconian, because when you're looking for future prospects and partnerships, having a resume that says you support shady sexual practices that are illegal in your country, even if fictional, doesn't bode well for you.

There's an opportunity to be had here and someone, somewhere, may just create a rival company that is more inclusive of adult content, less worried about political and moral guidelines and more interested in the money it comes with. Let's just hope a foundation based on greed doesn't turn into another Patreon fiasco after a few successful years.

 

[Ignazzio]

I still cannot trully say that Patreon is a fiasco until it wil actually start banning those games. Hope dies last

 

[Ark Thompson]

But I've never seen any to be openly underage - they never mention their actual age. Ofc it's obvious that many of them is underage but being honest about that isn't something usual.

In Japanese product, they sure do. It's often censored in the text (but the authors love trolling censoring the 1 in 13 for exemple) but it's definitely shown. Even if not stated, the kind of school they attend to allows to have a good idea of the age (and then again it's a 3-kanji word between elementary, middle and high school and it's always another kanji than the one defining the age level that is censored )

If you would create western game in which you would say this girl is 13 It would really took you into a deep shit in many places.

D: What if I told you this is exactly the kind of situation I'm in? 8D Though to be perfectly honest, I'm with you on that one and I tried to remove every occurence where she states her age: it doesn't bring a lot to the story and the risk ratio is heavy ^^'

I wonder if anyone here know how Enty's guideline deals with those things? Being Japanese doesn't mean it allows everything

As I said in the other big Patreon post, Enty needs you to tick a box in which you comply that your post doesn't contain "Sex or violence towards underaged characters", "Bestiality" and "Scatology". But I do know some artists that solve the problem by upping cropped pics without the questionable content but whose posts probably lead to a download of the full version of those pics. So the biggest question is: Is Enty doing like Patreon and putting those boxes to tick to say "if they do it, it's not our fault" or is it really totally banned no matter what (considering it's Japanese, I'd tend to think the first one, paradoxically the hentai world is well better included in their society than in ours and I'm sure the ratio of the rapists there is lower than in most of our European countries ^^')

 

[Ignazzio]

In Japanese product, they sure do. It's often censored in the text (but the authors love trolling censoring the 1 in 13 for exemple) but it's definitely shown. Even if not stated, the kind of school they attend to allows to have a good idea of the age (and then again it's a 3-kanji word between elementary, middle and high school and it's always another kanji than the one defining the age level that is censored )

I know Japanese a bit and never seen censored words other than those like pussy etc. oO Tho I didn't play much loli in Japanese so I trust you in that. Regardless of that anyone who knows a bit about Japanese educational system will know most of the girls are underage if the school setting differs from typical for their High School. I guess it works for them as they don't seem to have such a problem with underage in fictional porn as western culture has. They usually just don't mention their actual age.

D: What if I told you this is exactly the kind of situation I'm in? 8D Though to be perfectly honest, I'm with you on that one and I tried to remove every occurence where she states her age: it doesn't bring a lot to the story and the risk ratio is heavy ^^'

Western culture has no tradition comparable with Japanese when it comes to sexuality in fictional work. Our modern style usually tends to be much more realistic than manga style (even drawn one) and obviously its setting isn't Japanese so it makes those games more straightforward for our playerbase with fetishes they present. In my opinion it's just a matter of tradition that makes our culture much worse in terms of content censorship. Even 3D games in Japan can present clearly underage girl and they have no problems with that as long as information is hidden. In our games disclaimer seems to be necesarily as well as not mentioning anything about their age. But in fact even with those it can be picked on if girl looks obviously underage. That's the most risky thing I know about in adult games. Bestiality might be offputting marketingwise as well as some other weird fetishes but underage is just dangerous for a dev in terms of law. That's the world we live in.

As I said in the other big Patreon post, Enty needs you to tick a box in which you comply that your post doesn't contain "Sex or violence towards underaged characters", "Bestiality" and "Scatology". But I do know some artists that solve the problem by upping cropped pics without the questionable content but whose posts probably lead to a download of the full version of those pics. So the biggest question is: Is Enty doing like Patreon and putting those boxes to tick to say "if they do it, it's not our fault" or is it really totally banned no matter what (considering it's Japanese, I'd tend to think the first one, paradoxically the hentai world is well better included in their society than in ours and I'm sure the ratio of the rapists there is lower than in most of our European countries ^^')

That's a bummer but it's pretty typical for them. Underage usually is hidden while bestiality and scat just doesn't fit well with their sexual culture even tho it's perverted as hell. I wonder if these rules applies also to links provided by a creator. If not it wouldn't be a problem to create any such game there if you could post changelog and main page in a politically correct way. If they check the game content like Patreon is suppose to then it's done at least for bestiality and scat. Yeah, crime rate in Japan is one of the lowest on the planet. No time for crime with all these sweet games out there

 

[irredeemable]

Even if you disregard all the other bullshit regarding Hatreon, there is no reputable CC processor that would give them that kind of rate, especially if they knew porn was on the table. I suspect a lot of creators won't be getting paid, at least not what they expect.

 

[gamersglory]

Hatreon is the only thing like Patreon that would work with Adult content. There is no one else yet.

 

[lynx33]

I was until this considering supporting a couple of Patreon games with my next paycheck. Hatreon support will never happen for me. I can't support a site more or less built for white supremacists. I think it has the right to exist and I'll defend its right to exist with my last breath, but I personlly cannot support it.

 

[gamersglory]

No one is really leaving Patreon Yet so you can still support the games you want. If I was any good at building a website I would open an alternative. I have done a good amount of research on what's needed to open an adult content friendly Patreon-like site. But Web programming, not my strong point. I even know how to set up the business entity for best legal protection

 

[irredeemable]

Just got this from a random guy on my Discord:

comdater - Today at 11:30 AM
Hey, I have been following your patreon interactions (specifically the adult content stuff, of course along with your game which I have enjoyed). I know this may seem like a weird question, but I own a website design and development firm in Canada and I see this is becoming a big issue with adult content creators, would be interested if we were to develop a platform similar to patron but only for adult content?

irredeemable - Today at 11:32 AM
i dont' what your business situation is like, but i think there's already a market for that and it's only going to get bigger, especially if you allowed or looked the other way of "fringe" stuff especially incest

comdater - Today at 11:35 AM
We have the resources to do it, but before we set anything in motion I wanted to make sure there is actually a market for it. Would it be okay if I stay in touch with you, bounce some ideas off of you, and you can give us some direction in terms of what creators would want to see?

irredeemable - Today at 11:35 AM
sure, no problem

comdater - Today at 11:36 AM
Thanks, we will start drafting some rough mockups and ideas over the next week or so

irredeemable - Today at 11:36 AM
Sounds good. I hope it works out.​

 

[lexus33]

Just got this from a random guy on my Discord

That's what I was afraid of, too many alternatives will come up pretty soon. It will be a mess in a few months, but at least developers will be able to pick the best

 

[greyknight]

Just got this from a random guy on my Discord:

comdater - Today at 11:30 AM
Hey, I have been following your patreon interactions (specifically the adult content stuff, of course along with your game which I have enjoyed). I know this may seem like a weird question, but I own a website design and development firm in Canada and I see this is becoming a big issue with adult content creators, would be interested if we were to develop a platform similar to patron but only for adult content?​

That sounds really promising. I am not familiar with the speech laws in Canada. Hopefully they are lenient enough for the type of content at stake.

 

[Ignazzio]

It's great. Sooner or later someone will take a lead and new platform will establish itself. But the most problematic thing is Paypal payment and that's not so easy to deal with. If not for paypal I wouldn't deal with Patreon

 

[baneini]

It seems hatreon is the only alternative. I dont see the point of complaining about the owners politics, its a direct consequence of patreon not allowing those people to use patreon. Obviously patreon not allowing people distills only people who patreon dislikes into hatreon, what other possibility would there be? This whole discussion came about from the fear that games you like wont be on patreon, a 1:1 patreon clone would just follow in patreons footsteps and we'd get nowhere.

If they allow fictional bestiality/incest/rape/lolis in a manner a japanese platform would then they are the good guys, their stance on freedom of speech benefits porn game enthusiasts, not hurt them. The fact there is extreme content like neo-nazis gives porn game creators a sort of a guarantee that their content wont be too extreme for the platform.

That is if they actually allow games that their users find icky, which we will see once those games go up there. Untill then everythings unchanged and the industry relies on patreon not enforcing their own rules. Also I dont understand people saying basically "no games is better than hatreon games", what are your priorities? Democrat/republican politics it would seem, which is completely uninteresting for everyone not living in US.
I dont expect things to really change in the following years, patreon will remain as the main platform and people hope they wont one day get banned because a few too many people reported them.

 

[irredeemable]

Hatreon is not an alternative, at least not for me. Even ignoring the odious company you'd be keeping, there is the matter of payment. Do they have a history of it? What processors are they using? There is no way they are getting those rates from reputable processors. People are not going to be paid what the expect to be paid.

 

[greyknight]

Hatreon is not an alternative, at least not for me. Even ignoring the odious company you'd be keeping, there is the matter of payment. Do they have a history of it? What processors are they using? There is no way they are getting those rates from reputable processors. People are not going to be paid what the expect to be paid.

Do you have proof that content creators are being defrauded? Hatreon is still pretty small with only 60 or so creators but some of them have decently sized youtube channels. For example, I support Styxhexenhammer666 who has 180k subscribers. He hasn't raised any hue and cry about shenanigans going on. I see Hatreon charging my credit card each month and haven't had any issues. I suspect Hatreon will not be forthcoming about their financial backend because there are a lot of pro-censorship forces who would love to take them down.

 

[anne O'nymous]

That sounds really promising. I am not familiar with the speech laws in Canada. Hopefully they are lenient enough for the type of content at stake.

It's not and never was a mater of speech laws. Patreon say nothing, create nothing and fund nothing. Technically and legally, they don't goes against any laws related to sexuality or pornography. The only legal issue is in the fact that they take benefit from illegals actions of others ; assuming that it's illegal to make incest games by example.

So, on the sole point of legality, what's needed is :
1) Video games are seen as fictional, like movies or books. It's not always the case, in Germany by example they are seen as toys ; it's why they can have swastika in movies but not in video games.
AND
2) Fictional depiction of an illegal act isn't an illegal act. Writing a book were the main character is a rapist isn't the same thing than being a rapist and so don't violate the laws against rape.
OR
3) Taking benefit of an illegal action isn't illegal if it wasn't your initial intend or if you were tricked to do it. It's the hardest part, especially because it can be legal in the site country but illegal in the creator country, or the opposite. Basically it mean that the site must be able to have a rule stating that creators promise to not goes against the law of their country, and it must be enough to legally argue that they were tricked and so have done nothing illegal.

As for the laws in Canada...
The

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basically state that it will be mostly illegal in Canada if it depict "undue exploitation of sex". This applying to any "written matter, picture, model, phonograph record or other thing whatever". So, games with incest, bestiality and/or none-consensual sex, whatever it's a 2D or 3D games, are illegals.
It's also illegal to "makes, prints, publishes, distributes, circulates, sells, exposes to public view" these games. This make a Canadian based adult version of Patreon in the obligation to ban incest, bestiality and none-consensual sex, or at least force the creators to not put content on the site itself and not directly link to it. So, exactly like what we think is the position of Patreon actually.

 

[greyknight]

This make a Canadian based adult version of Patreon in the obligation to ban incest, bestiality and none-consensual sex, or at least force the creators to not put content on the site itself and not directly link to it. So, exactly like what we think is the position of Patreon actually.

Thank you for the very informative post. I am going to book mark that page you linked.
In the U.S. all art, literature and media content is colloquially called "speech." It's a quirk of our legal tradition, our 1st amendment specifically protecting speech and everything else flowing from that. I have to remember to not be so U.S. centric, sorry for the confusion.
Re: Canada's laws. Well crap, that's not good. Still this Canadian company might be able to be creative and host their adult version of Patreon in a country that is more accommodating with sufficient corporate layers between them and the site. Kind of like how Apple and others build their products in countries with looser labor and environmental laws yet import their products back into the West. Yay, capitalism.

 

[irredeemable]

Do you have proof that content creators are being defrauded? Hatreon is still pretty small with only 60 or so creators but some of them have decently sized youtube channels. For example, I support Styxhexenhammer666 who has 180k subscribers. He hasn't raised any hue and cry about shenanigans going on. I see Hatreon charging my credit card each month and haven't had any issues. I suspect Hatreon will not be forthcoming about their financial backend because there are a lot of pro-censorship forces who would love to take them down.

As far as I can tell they won't even name their payment processor but call it "high risk."

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That's AT LEAST 10% + $1000 dollars a year to the CC companies. If they were offered 5% it would likely enteail hidden fees, exorbinant chargeback fees, "rolling 25%+ holding" of your money that you may never end up seeing, etc.. Look up these low-tier high risk payment providers on the BBB, you'll see what I mean. I couldn't find anything on the internet about what processor Hatreon is using, only that the CEO was "handling the processing himself" which does not sound encouraging. They're also actively seeking to move to widely-derided CryptoCoin.

So yeh, I wouldn't expect them to be a long term solution.