As a side note, don't think you need to include the incest part in your statement of "incest relationship needs to be so sacred". Think it applies to all forms of relationship that people can possibly whine about? Unless it is specific to maybe it reminding them of their own parents or relatives doing the nasty which in turns disgusts them but guess those types would probably not be playing an incest game in the first place.
I think this needs to be said
- Thread starter sansusername
- Start date
You don't have to like it. You just have to realize it's not all about you. Not every game is marketed to you. If you can't handle any possibility of competition, play nothing but games where it's impossible to run into it. Trainer games, for instance. Even the games mentioned earlier, by Gormly, have every possibility of turning NTR on you. It's almost certainly possible that the prostitute and or your step daughter can be taken by the bad guys in Depraved Awakening, forcing you to watch as she gets raped. That's absolutely a possible future that's been foreshadowed, and more importantly, Philly has warned you that your actions in the game have consequences that you might not like.
That's just one example. DoDana, which was mentioned, actually does have the option to let Dana fuck the swinger dude. Sisterly lust has one of your sisters already dating an asshole, if you somehow fuck that up I have no doubt she will stay with him. I'm fairly certain the black dude took the naked photos of his sister that he sent you, even if he isn't fucking her he's interested.
Literally any story format game where you play as a man has the possibility that you'll run into a situation where a love interest fucks someone else. That's just the way it is. So avoid such games if you can't handle it. Again, you don't go into Panda express and complain about Chinese food.
- Sep 11, 2017
- 817
- 919
I made it very very clear in every single post, that I'm NOT anywhere near the people this thread is about, because I will certainly not run into any of these games, so your ad hominem arguement is a strawman at best and slander at worst. I was always talking about people who are at risk of running into an NTR game unwittingly and who may find the experience traumatic.
The reason I care for these people is called empathy, if you ever heard about that!!!
Empathy for an asshole who plays a GAME and gets so mad that they personally attack a developer over a virtual dick entering the virtual vagina of their virtual girlfriend? Seriously? Do you not see how stupid that is? It's not ok. But you continue to defend them.
I will clarify one thing. I was really using you in a sense of anyone who does this. I don't think you're like them at all. You're just defending them. They're objectively wrong. There's no excuse for their behavior. I will accept no argument to the contrary. That kind of aggro masculine bullshit is toxic and has no place, not only on this forum, but in society in general.
There is a way to write an antagonist that isn't corporeal. Especially in Incest. However the problem that most devs fall into is making the love interest the antagonist. They are the ones working against your ultimate goal, getting laid. Then you have the ones who fall into the "game is the antagonist" category. Dark Silver, Mr. Dots, Faerin, all guilty, but also, otherwise, good devs, imo, like Perverteer and Ptolemy, who, with sisterly lust and DoDana, made games with no real obstacle to you getting laid but time and whether or not you passed a binary check at some point. The drama in DoDana is all, mostly, a joke, because you can't fail. Similarly, in Sisterly Lust, as long as you say the right things you'll advance the story with each girl. The girls aren't working against you, but the game, in it's binary conversation checks, is.
There are also, as Gormly pointed out, a few really good examples of antagonists which aren't romantic rivals, Depraved Awakening, for instance. However, the fact that DA doesn't use a romantic rival doesn't mean "NTR" is impossible. In fact, I'd assume given the plot and the cryptic warning about how making the wrong choices could have negative consequences, that the chances of the girls in the game being taken by the bad guy and turned into their rape slaves is ever present.
The romantic rival is done very well in games like Babysitter, where if you're not able to make the right choices you will push your niece away from yourself, and into the waiting arms of the rivals, either Robert or Mr. Silver. It's easy enough to avoid, assuming you're not completely incapable of talking to a woman. What's great about it, is it adds stakes. It adds something to work against. But allows you to tell a romance.
The other antagonist option is one that is uniquely suited to incest, but rarely well implemented. Mr. Dots tried with DmD. Ptolemy tried with DoDana. But this antagonist is the fear of their relationship being discovered by the person who they fear to lose. This is the antagonist in my game. As things go forward you'll be forced to hide the affection the twins feel for one another from their mother, and the world, as they become relatively famous. The problem is, most devs are afraid to actually cause this ending. The one where the relationship is discovered and comes to a crashing end. Its a difficult commitment to make. So even though many try, most just write it in, without actually using it.
Obviously people who do not fit your vision of what is good behavior are not allowed to live (in society?): /
It may be a little too far there ...
And obviously we always come back to this idea of personal attack against a developer, I thought I managed to show that this case was already settled by a rule of the forum ...
Well, from my point of view, your way of expressing yourself here discredits you completely between the "assholes" "aggro masculine bullshit" and the fact that you accept no argument, totally refusing any debate just shows that you refuse the dialogue . So I do not see the interest of all that. Finally a bit like the ones that are pointed out ?
I'll ask you to point to where I called for their deaths. Your hyperbole is unappreciated. Again you're hiding behind "the rules of the forum" line of thought, as if that changes anything. People still do it. The rules don't stop it from happening. That takes a change in people personally and that's what I'm calling for. People don't have to all like NTR. It doesn't bother me, because I don't believe in monogamy anyways, but even so I don't seek it out. I don't like molestation and rape in games. But if I come across them I do the mature thing and ignore them. It's not for me. I accept that. That's what people who don't like any fetish, but especially the anti NTR crowd need to learn.
Further, this is an adult website is it not? Are you incapable of handling adult language? Asshole is a strong word describing a person who acts in a vile and rude fashion. Aggro masculine, nothing wrong with those, bullshit, maybe, but you're an adult, I'm sure you understand the meaning of
You must be registered to see the links
. Of course I'll accept no argument that allows you to verbally abuse people over fucking pixels. Its objectively wrong. This isn't a dialogue. Its a call to action. But you keep coming to argue for your right to essentially walk into Panda Express and scream and cry that they sell chinese food. No one cares if you like NTR or not. No one cares if you like Straight Porn or not. No one cares if you like Futa or Not. If you find a game with content you don't like, be a mature adult and simply don't play it. Don't enter into the thread to complain about it having content you don't like. No one's forcing you to play it. That's all on you. You have a right to not like it. You have a right to be disgusted. You don't have a right to enter into the thread and make a scene. As I've said before. If you absolutely have to go in and say, "it had potential but I'm not interested in NTR." in a civil manner, fine that's your prerogative, but you're adding nothing of value to the discussion of the game. The Dev isn't going to remove it just for you, just like Panda Express isn't going to sell you a cheeseburger.
- Jul 13, 2017
- 314
- 309
So, in every game involving a male lead (which is the VAST majority of them) you should be prepared for love interests cheating, getting raped, etc. and not be upset if it happens?!?! That's not complaining about chinese food in a Panda Express, that's going into ANY restaurant (except the vegetarian (i.e. games with a female lead)) and having your fries replaced with fried rice mid meal.
Also, if we simply reflect your earlier arguments they start to fall apart.
Yes. Games require TWO parties a creator and a player. Both are free to leave at any point. Sometimes, if one party feels misled there will be some bitterness ("I didn't expect you to be such whiny little babies" or "I wish I'd known this game had fetish x before I started playing it").
This one actually works well both ways. If it's not meant for me, don't f*cking market it to me by waiting until midgame to add fetishes or sudden twists. BY that point I'm rather invested in the story/characters, and may have actually decided to fund the games development a bit (story twists are fine and even appreciated, but sudden unexpected and unfavorable changes to character relationships are not).
This is kind of hard to do since members don't have genre tags like games, but it shouldn't be too hard to find a forum populated exclusively by people who enjoy that stuff. But that's not F95, the board you chose to come to and remained here after seeing how diverse the member base is. This is the audience you chose. YOU are the one complaining about chinese food at the Mandarin Buffet.
Um yes, actually I do. Every user here (in good standing) does.
The fact that you start or participate in a thread does not grant you ownership of that 'space'. It may be unhelpful, it may be disruptive, bad manners, or downright being a bad person, but it's still a right (and a burden) of people living in a free country. You don't have the right to be free of criticism, offense, or bad manners (outside your private space).
You're sounding more and more like the same people you're complaining about. "If you don't like a game don't play it". If you don't like comments don't read them (and ignore/block the commenter as they'll likely keep whining and whine in other places). 'Accept it.' Same to you. See my earlier comment about choosing this forum to participate in.
I'm not defending a developer that pulls the rug out from under you. I think that a game what will include NTR should have a tag to warn it's users. That's not something I'll defend. However, "Literally any story format game where you play as a man has the possibility that you'll run into a situation where a love interest fucks someone else. That's just the way it is. So avoid such games if you can't handle it. Again, you don't go into Panda express and complain about Chinese food." When I said this, I was specifically talking about the people are soooo insanely against the mere possibility of male competition for their love interest that they'll rage and personally attack people really shouldn't be playing these games. It was hyperbolic in a way, but also appropriate.
As I've said, I've spoken with a fellow dev who was DM'd about the game they write for over its possible NTR. The person devolved into a slobbering neanderthal over what he called unavoidable NTR. In that game, to have the scene occur which he complained about, you had to, first, choose not to dance with the love interest, and second, allow the love interest to invite the rival over to the apartment. Both are avoidable. And even then, the "NTR" content he was going aggro over is in the context of a game of Truth or Dare, it's mild at most, and has no penetration (oral, vaginal, or anal) with the love interest. This isn't unique, go to the thread for Game Legends and you'll see people screaming NTR over the idea of Kira, in a lie she told Max, being with a black man. Had they read the text they'd have known all of that was a fake lie. But that didn't matter to them, they raged over an imagined scene that doesn't even actually show penetration, and before anything real happens in the lie, it's interrupted by Alice laughing her ass off and stopping her from continuing with the lie.
These people are absolutely unreasonable. They can't handle mature content. They freak out at the possibility of their virtual love interest being touched by a virtual rival. Its unhealthy and unproductive. It's almost always a false statement, like the ones I mentioned above. Someone losing their mind over an avoidable rival in a game they failed to avoid. They turn away potential players, who take their message at face value, they insult and degrade developers on a false basis, and they act like spoiled children.
So yes. If that's the way you're going to act, then you had better not play male protagonist story based games, because you're gonna have a bad time, a lot. Its not our fault you're not mature enough to handle disappointment. It's yours. And I'll reiterate here. I'm not defending Dark Silver, or the dev behind Au Pair Innocence, etc., who all of the sudden throw NTR at you out of left field as if telling you to go fuck yourself. That's a completely separate issue from what this thread is about. Those devs are guilty of presenting a false face.
- Mar 4, 2018
- 61
- 31
I can easily sympathize with this, as me too - as maybe every mostly-vanilla guy sooner or later? - have been "tricked" into a title that was NOT as vanilla as advertised ... and when the shit hit the fan, it was "late in", so I already was invested/ had started to like it a lot, because outside of said shit it was really good to me - and one of the few that also was really "hot" to me.
It was a no-no! problem in the title, imo., but my anger was towards who advertised it as vanilla.
So, unless Opening Post belongs to developer, and they have sufficient user-group rights to edit etc. OP, should the anger not be directed at whoever made / has control over opening post, and not necessarily the developper ?
Like when in VN or whatever [character] is soo annoying, again!, that moment my anger goes towards that character, and only a little later, with some distance, towards where it belongs: the writer (or producers, for highly commercial "products")
And when it really is the developer/ writer tricking audience into shit that is contrary to what they misled audience believing they would get, then to me it is all understandable them getting hate and shitstorm ...
But when a game is tagged properly, and maybe even named, say, "Arsehole ugly grandpas gay NTR incest hell 0.5", then going into that game's topic and consistently and repeatedly stating how said game's content is not to one's liking ... that's tmu. what this topic was originally about
Like, I do not think/ I hope any/no-one posting here in "anti-dev-harrassing" position is of the opinion that any statement regarding one's own dis/likes should be banned.
See, just two topics up, a new beginner dev (
You must be registered to see the links
) posted
You must be registered to see the links
, and someone posted a comment:I really, really hope noone here sees that post as problematic.
I see it as helpful, nice, normal communication, and all that.
(in this case, this comment had an answer by dev that may have me amused whenever I'll think of it, for years to come, because wonderfully representative of "problems you never could even imagine to have when starting building porn games" AND also wonderfully "creative + pragamatic solutions to these problems")
Ok sorry, I thought that asshole was an insulting term, obviously my compression of English is not very good.
Well, you do what you want ...
Beside that you say to be there for the search for action but action against what?
You can not ask for action against those "assholes" who make personal attacks against the developers. It already exists.
Against what ... futile comments? "I like your game but I do not like 2D" or "I do not like the characters in your game", "This game is pretty good" ... "I ate an apple this morning" ...
And if I ultimately find that the targeted comment is not futile but entertaining, for whatever reason, we must debate the futility of the comment to act?
Of course not, I am well aware that there are behaviors that bother you. But if you keep pointing in the wrong direction you end up not understanding where the problem really is. And we arrive at comments and behavior that bothers me, like the one you did there.
Some people have pointed to the real problem I think. This is not a question about the form of the comment but about the annoying side of the repetitiveness of these comments.
Personally I came across this:
"Any further discussion of NTR in this thread will result in immediate deletion and receiving a possible warning. This serves as your complementary first warning. Use the following dedicated thread instead:xxxx"
Well here it's reversed and these are people who would like NTR where there is none. Is it really different?
This is a message from the forum team. Is not that the kind of thing you are looking for? An action moderators to make a thread more readable and fluid while allowing those wanting to speak on a subject, as futile as it is, to do elsewhere.
Or are you really here to ask for a complete rejection of messages expressing a feeling towards a part of a game's content (fetish or not)?
As I thought I made pretty damned clear before:
It isn't enough to block people. The people, collectively, need to correct their behavior. I don't think that, at least in a game where they're quite a few updates in, it is appropriate to go in and ask for the inclusion of your personal fetish either. It's not quite as toxic as the ones making things hell, but it does get off topic fast. One such discussion happened with Pregnancy in the Babysitter thread last month. It was civil, but it was off topic, and shouldn't have happened in a game on its 8th or 9th release.
Again, this isn't a problem moderation can fix. People aren't going to report every asshole. It's not in our nature. Moderators aren't going to catch every asshole. What needs to happen is anyone who reads this thread, be they asshole or just random observer, needs to acknowledge it and accept that this continued behavior needs to stop. And for the last time, because you keep trying to make this about civil people expressing distaste when that's never been the fucking point, if you have to post, in a civil manner, that you won't play a game because of its content, that's fine. However, you have to understand, as I've said before, that comment has nothing of value to the thread. The developer isn't going to read your comment and change their game. The people in the thread aren't going to read your comment and think, "Oh wow, yeah, this game shouldn't have that." It's far more likely, that by making that post, you'll invite a negative discussion. So, make that CIVIL post if you absolutely can't simply ignore the thread, but don't allow your distaste to become a virulent element within the forums.
- May 8, 2017
- 2,888
- 3,288
With fetish based on real, often traumatic, emotions it's just normal some people will be overly emotional about it. It's a problem but I can't find any way to fix that. In my opinion there is some clear problem with basic understanding of NTR and therefore with tags some people are annoyed about. To be honest other male in a game that can score any girl is usually just vanilla. Before BB people here would call it like that and stop talking. Most realistic sexual aspects that are common in real life like blowjob or anal usually ain't tagged as they're an obvious addition. With males it's also a natural addition unless game is fully harem focused, so if dev has some plotline to tell in a later update he can use it without thinking twice about tagging it. Now it became a problem after BB but no one was bitching about NTR when Goblinboy released his games 12-10 years ago even tho he was easily the most popular creator we had then. People are so used to all our patreon games in a recent years being harem collectors they started to consider vanilla themes extreme when they go against harem playstyle.
What a stupid comment.
You're literally saying, "if you don't like the incest I like, then you're ruining everything!"
Absolutely retarded comment
Sure when you remove it completely from the context of the thread. He shouldn't have to have included in that statement the fact that not liking it and then attacking the thread and developer for it are what's being discussed here. But fine, pick apart his comment so you can misrepresent his intent and feel justified in calling his argument both stupid and retarded, as if that's not redundant.
If you're trying to conquer an already claimed territory but whoever has claim over that territory doesn't push back to defend their territory can you really call it a rivalry? Something can't be considered as a rivalry if there is no one actively competing or defending what you're after, right?
- Jul 4, 2017
- 4,479
- 7,068
There is no rivalry because those that aren't mine i'm not seeking a relationship with and those that are have no external suitor outside of what I allow.
The mother in DoD is married, it was never going to go beyond sex. There is no rivalry because I got what I was aiming for without competition.
There is no rivalry for say Carli in DA. Despite her being a call girl she's dating me and I fuck her for free. No competition for her love. I knew what she did for a living and still went after her romantically, no competition, no rivalry and no other man. Same for all the other women in DA. I fuck them without competition. 2 women who were married threw themselves on my dick with barely any effort on my part.
Love and Submission. The sister and mother will only go with someone else if I give permission. That's not anywhere close to a rivalry.
Where, in any of those situations, is the threat of me losing the woman?
There isn't one.
In DoD i'm only looking for sex, I got it, job done. I'm not looking to steal the mother from her husband, i'm looking to fuck her and that's what I did.
The only way I can lose Carli in DA is by being a total dick but I don't lose her to another man.
If I let Carol go on her date I didn't lose her to another man, I allowed her to go with another man.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not telling you what to like. But you should really do some soul searching on how vulnerable you are to the thought of competition. I mean, in the real world women aren't just there for your pleasure, you will have romantic rivals, even if you're married, its just biology. Now, in a committed relationship, those rivals are usually kept at bay so long as both you and your partner are good to one another, but in most of the relationships portrayed in these games, you're not in a committed relationship. There are going to be other fish in the sea. And to take it back to the OP's statement, especially in an incest game, it is utterly insane to think that your hot sister/daughter isn't going to have guys who will try to woo her. In those games, like in reality, your goal is to be the one who does the wooing. If you fail in that it's your fault.
I'm not saying that you have to play those games, at all. I'm not saying you have to change at all. What I am saying, is that if you start playing a game, and the characters act in a manner that faces the facts that the MC isn't the only fish in the sea, then the mature and adult thing to do is either, a, play with the knowledge that you have to defeat this rival, or b, quit playing because you're not interested, a totally viable option, and move on. Going into the thread to complain that the characters don't worship at the alter of MC is simply childish. Again. No one is forcing you to play these games. No one is telling you you have to enjoy these games. We are simply saying that if all you have to contribute is that you personally, for personal reasons, didn't enjoy the game, to keep it to yourself. If you have technical concerns, art isn't good, dialogue is wooden and unrealistic, story feels forced, it has no story and has instead used pure grind to advance to sex. These are valid complaints about mechanical and technical aspects of the game that can and should be changed. But going into a thread and complaining that the story doesn't suit your particular fetish is not. The dev isn't going to change this. And more to the point, we don't want devs who would.
- Jul 4, 2017
- 4,479
- 7,068
I am married.
There are men that want to fuck my wife, she's attractive, I don't blame them but they are no threat to my relationship.
It's not a matter of being open to rivalry it's just not something that happens. I'm a big guy, people tend not to want to piss me off and my wife doesn't stand for bullshit so blokes don't tend to approach her. When she's out with the girls they are all in relationships and i've seen how hard they are on people that try and flirt with them.
Rivalry suggests competition which there isn't.
- Sep 11, 2017
- 817
- 919
So, it's about the definition of NTR?
So basically there are two factions:
One faction are people who are sensitive about cheating, rival lovers or whatever you call it. They may have had personal traumatic experience and therefore I think they have any reason to be sensitive. A lot of people have commited suicide because they were cheated, so I strongly suggest, it's not something people should take lightly. I tend to feel compassion for them because I think these are the weakest and most vulnerable, even though they may not be aware of the correct definition of some genres here.
I'm NOT talking about trolls who are just here to say "cuck games are gross", or who like to ridicule or shame people with masochistic fetishes.
The other faction are developers who refuse to tag their games as NTR because they don't think that rivalry equals NTR. I'm certainly not an expert on NTR but as a writer I can understand that you don't want to label your work as something you don't consider it.
The solution: Some new tags for the forum - polyamory, love-triangle, rival lovers e.g. So everybody will know what's in the game, no bad surprises and artistic freedom for developers.
So basically there are two factions:
One faction are people who are sensitive about cheating, rival lovers or whatever you call it. They may have had personal traumatic experience and therefore I think they have any reason to be sensitive. A lot of people have commited suicide because they were cheated, so I strongly suggest, it's not something people should take lightly. I tend to feel compassion for them because I think these are the weakest and most vulnerable, even though they may not be aware of the correct definition of some genres here.
I'm NOT talking about trolls who are just here to say "cuck games are gross", or who like to ridicule or shame people with masochistic fetishes.
The other faction are developers who refuse to tag their games as NTR because they don't think that rivalry equals NTR. I'm certainly not an expert on NTR but as a writer I can understand that you don't want to label your work as something you don't consider it.
The solution: Some new tags for the forum - polyamory, love-triangle, rival lovers e.g. So everybody will know what's in the game, no bad surprises and artistic freedom for developers.