Female Protag Corruption games and what is wrong with them.

[DarthSeduction]

After all it's all about personal preferences. I don't like most of the female protagonist corruption games, because they are not lesbian games, but some like a female protagonist dominated by men, for some reason. So there is true right or wrong here.

But when it comes the men writing female characters or women writing male chracters, I think, you don't have to share the protagonist's gender to tell a good story. Do people think Daenerys Targaryen and Cersei Lannister ar poorly written characters, just because a man made them? Or Harry Potter, because he was invented by a woman?

There are times when GRRM makes some choices that make women cringe, because his perspective is too far off. That said, he's a great writer. The majority of porn writers seem to not be. They can't put themselves in a woman's shoes and write. They lack empathy.

Empathy is why women tend to be able to write men better. Unlike men, women are trained from birth to hone their empathy and often communicate through it. Men are taught to suppress their empathy, it's seen as a weakness. As a result you have men constantly not understanding women because women communicate emotionally as much as they do verbally.

In order to understand one another we have to be ready and willing to put ourselves in their shoes and see they their eyes. When you can't do that, you can't write a convincing character.

 

[Zippity]

Some of the issues derive themselves from public mediums, aka movies, posters, magazine covers, commercials, etc... The fact that women and men see the world and communicate with the world in different ways... Many of the times, with female protagonists in adult/erotic visual novels/games they are seen more as sex objects by the male author/s and/or developers who only see a woman's perspective based on their experiences with those same public mediums... That or they have in their minds eye, this idealized male perspective of what they wrongly perceive as a women's perspective based on their idea/s of what they feel and how they react...

I know the book is old, but if you've ever read any books on the subject, such as Men Are From Mars, and Women Are From Venus... It is pretty clear that most men don't see things the same and/or communicate in the same ways as women do... And it is even more complex when it comes to how men communicate with other men, and how women communicate with other women... That perception and language barrier presents itself in fiction all the time... And it's only worse when trying to tell a story or make a game with lots of sex in it, since that same barrier and/or misconception carries over into the story telling...

Not all, but in a lot of female protagonist erotic/adult visual novels/games you get a woman character who is highly sexual, and especially in a corruption story where the protagonist is the one being corrupted, you see a lot of hyper sexualized scenes involving the protagonist... Add to that, their personalities are not always within the scope of reality... Mostly because the story tellers plans are for the character to be taken advantage of by the other characters, or to constantly present choices for that to possibly occur for the reader/player... With the aim of just making it more masturbation worthy, rather then to tell a meaningful and or realistic story based off proper female mentality/behavior...

There are some female protagonist based visual novels/games where it is more realistic for the female protagonists choices and story, but it's rare... And I think that it's either due to the author/s being male and not being mature enough and/or experienced enough to know the true inner workings of the female mind/behavior, or they just don't care and want to make porn... The few female author/s and developers that decide to make a female protagonist have the same quandaries to go through... Make something more porn based with no grip on reality, or make a meaningful story told from a true female perspective and hope people play/read it...

Another issue you run into, is that not every player/reader of items from this industry speak up in places like this or on other sites related to this industry... Only a minority of the total player/reader base even reads or posts to any forums revolving around erotic/adult based visual novels/games... So you get a very skewed and chaotic view of what folks as a whole even want from these things a majority of the time... Personally, I think the majority of folks want something with depth and meaning that sometimes they can masturbate too, but it's not always the priority... Where as a minority wants to just masturbate as much as possible and move on... Because why read a story driven visual novel which is very akin to adult romance novels, or play a story driven game which requires some reading, if all you want to do is masturbate? Hell, there are more porn videos and/or short porn stories on the web then there are people on earth, for that... Most folks want a good story to go along with their erotic stuff, because you get more pleasure out of it when it's meaningful, deep, and immersing... And it's boring to always read something told from a male perspective every single time...

 

[Lykanz]

I actually assume GGGB is made by a woman, do you know otherwise? I know the rules of the internet dictate that they're all men, but Eva Kiss is a pretty effeminate name to pick.

I... Don't really know, to be honest.

I have the bad habit of assuming every erotic game developer is a fat, bearded dude.

 

[IhaveNoPornAndIMustFap]

Hey, I wrote that trope. Maybe I should chime in?

The problem is agency, or rather, the lack thereof. The "retard in lechertown" lacks agency, she doesn't actively do anything, she just goes along with the schemes of others. This is, for one, frustrating for the player in a video game who wants agency because otherwise you might as well watch a movie. But much more aggravatingly to me, is that the trope ignores - no, denies - the active part of women in sexual interactions. I believe writers of "retard in lechertown" type erotica misunderstand - in my humble opinion - the fundamental workings of human heterosexuality. To them, sex is something men do to women, when in my experience, it is something women play a very proactive role in, quite possibly more so than men. And this is not a "male writer vs female writer" issue, some of the very worst examples of this trope I've seen were by female writers - presumably fat tumblerettes who have never touched a penis in their life. But I would agree that the majority of male writers seem to fall into these trappings.

Mind you: This trope doesn't bother me for some bogus feminist reason - quite the opposite. The feminist world view is actually precisely that of the trope of "retard in lechertown", where no woman is responsible for sex, as all sexual interactions are "done" to her, instead of women actively provoking and desiring them. Fuck feminists. But the trope bothers me mainly because it perpetuates a wrong stereotype, teaches potential young men and women wrong, dysfunctional, feminist paradigms of sexual interactions, and it bothers me because it portrays men invariably as fucktarded dimwit rapists who seemingly cannot control themselves around a hot girl protagonist. I wanna see a porn game/plot where the female protagonist has this rape fantasy and actively seeks to get raped and constantly tries to get guys to "take advantage" of her, but they're too much of a pussy to go along with it and so her plan to get raped is constantly foiled, because the guys around her are just too nice. A much more realistic and relatable problem for many girls, I might add. No you can't make that game. It's patented now. By me.

Coceter Chronicles is actually an example of a female protagonist done right, it is a character with agency. She teases, she flaunts, she lures, she intrudes and is inappropriate to force sexual situations because she (via the player) wants that and it excites her. And when the prince tries to blackmail her, she can basically tell him to go fuck himself. The situations where Tabitha does lack agency - the opening scene with the guards where Tabitha gets her tits exposed - seem like a remnant of a first draft of the game that has not yet been scrapped. As the game progresses, the player - as Tabitha - gains more and more influence, with the possible exception of the titty bar roofie scene. And that scene is only there because of the pacing - you've spent like 20 minutes listening to exposition in a titty bar and there hasn't been anything sexy going on in your porn game.

 

[DarthSeduction]

Hey, I wrote that trope. Maybe I should chime in?

The problem is agency, or rather, the lack thereof. The "retard in lechertown" lacks agency, she doesn't actively do anything, she just goes along with the schemes of others. This is, for one, frustrating for the player in a video game who wants agency because otherwise you might as well watch a movie. But much more aggravatingly to me, is that the trope ignores - no, denies - the active part of women in sexual interactions. I believe writers of "retard in lechertown" type erotica misunderstand - in my humble opinion - the fundamental workings of human heterosexuality. To them, sex is something men do to women, when in my experience, it is something women play a very proactive role in, quite possibly more so than men. And this is not a "male writer vs female writer" issue, some of the very worst examples of this trope I've seen were by female writers - presumably fat tumblerettes who have never touched a penis in their life. But I would agree that the majority of male writers seem to fall into these trappings.

Mind you: This trope doesn't bother me for some bogus feminist reason - quite the opposite. The feminist world view is actually precisely that of the trope of "retard in lechertown", where no woman is responsible for sex, as all sexual interactions are "done" to her, instead of women actively provoking and desiring them. Fuck feminists. But the trope bothers me mainly because it perpetuates a wrong stereotype, teaches potential young men and women wrong, dysfunctional, feminist paradigms of sexual interactions, and it bothers me because it portrays men invariably as fucktarded dimwit rapists who seemingly cannot control themselves around a hot girl protagonist. I wanna see a porn game/plot where the female protagonist has this rape fantasy and actively seeks to get raped and constantly tries to get guys to "take advantage" of her, but they're too much of a pussy to go along with it and so her plan to get raped is constantly foiled, because the guys around her are just too nice. A much more realistic and relatable problem for many girls, I might add. No you can't make that game. It's patented now. By me.

Coceter Chronicles is actually an example of a female protagonist done right, it is a character with agency. She teases, she flaunts, she lures, she intrudes and is inappropriate to force sexual situations because she (via the player) wants that and it excites her. And when the prince tries to blackmail her, she can basically tell him to go fuck himself. The situations where Tabitha does lack agency - the opening scene with the guards where Tabitha gets her tits exposed - seem like a remnant of a first draft of the game that has not yet been scrapped. As the game progresses, the player - as Tabitha - gains more and more influence, with the possible exception of the titty bar roofie scene. And that scene is only there because of the pacing - you've spent like 20 minutes listening to exposition in a titty bar and there hasn't been anything sexy going on in your porn game.

I can't like this post more than once but holy fuck I'd like to. Even that Titty Bar roofie scene, you the naive fae creature who's never had to worry about that, can get out of it by shouting to the girl working at the bar as soon as you feel funny. You wake up, not raped, and at Courtney's place. There is the scene where you get raped by the water after being overpowered, but you did fight it... I kinda wish it would let me bite, but whatever.

I really like your idea of the female protag actively seeking to be taken advantage of. This would really fix the problem with this type of game. It would even be possible to make her regret her actions after she challenges the wrong person and is actually hurt because of it. Its a great format for a game.

I will caution your view of feminism though. That's more the view of those tumblrettes who've never touched a dick in their lives. The feminists I know are all about ending sexual repression allowing women to be sluts in a society where men have kept them and treated them like property. To this day you have the dad who protects his daughters virtue, with no thought to her own agency. Hell, my own mother cringes when I enable my little sister to be just as slutty or conservative as she feels like, and my mom is a lesbian who's had her share of promiscuity. Those tumblrettes are responding to the idea of sex as a masculine thing that gets forced on them because they've been taught by this society that they aren't allowed to act. That brand of feminism, the conservative librarian looking girl, holding the sign outside of hooters shaming other women for being sluts isn't feminism. Its the very thing that feminists should be fighting. But they've grown accustomed to being kept, to being property.

 

[Chel]

But is broke, for all the reasons listed. How about, "Some people like it the way it is, so don't stop making games this way altogether, just make better ones, too."

Seems like everybody wins.

But these devs are making the games that they want to make (clearly). Plus, they make enough money too. If they change the way they make their games, some supporters will clearly drop, be it people who are there just for a quick wank or people who just dont like the new format.

Also, what happened to understanding that people have different tastes? Every game doesnt have to fit all players.

Making a game yourself is also an option, just saying...

 

[DarthSeduction]

But these devs are making the games that they want to make (clearly). Plus, they make enough money too. If they change the way they make their games, some supporters will clearly drop, be it people who are there just for a quick wank or people who just dont like the new format.

Also, what happened to understanding that people have different tastes? Every game doesnt have to fit all players.

Making a game yourself is also an option, just saying...

I am making a game myself, and I don't subscribe to the idea that this is simply a matter of taste. From a storytelling perspective these games are unbiasedly broken. You cannot present me with a character who gets every question on an exam she had 2 days to study for correct, as well as recognizes and insults a characters ineptitude over computer security with a targeted and very specific critique and then have me believe that she's so fucking stupid that every tom dick and harry can coerce her into sex for no good reason. One single change to all of these stories would make it work, and that is, tell us that she's looking to be abused. Otherwise, the moment Anna's boss attempts to blackmail her with the crime her friend committed she would walk right the fuck out of the building and go to the police.

The moment Anna finds out that Ashley has secretly been filming her and saving that footage for himself, she'd walk right to the fucking police. The moment Anna's boyfriend finds out about Sergei she'd explain that Sergei was a fucking gangster and she feared for her life. The moment Anna's boss at the coffee shop started fondling her while she was talking, she'd have kneed him in the face, finished talking to the taxman, and then gone to the police to talk about both the boss who was fondling her and the asshole blackmailing her into a date.

This world is completely implausible. Now, here's the thing. If the girl in question were the Daughter from DMD, I wouldn't be here. The daughter from DMD is exactly that fucking stupid. She skews as being about 10 years old mentally. And she has always done so. At no point has D ever made me think she was capable of handling herself. Now, let's talk about a way to make this genre work. The Born Sexy Yesterday trope. You may recognise this one from such popular titles as The 5th Element, or Tron Legacy, or Weird Science. In these films the female love interest is born a fully functioning adult, without the sexual maturity of her form. In these films it would be simple in most cases (maybe not Leeloo) to do all the things you do in your favorite corruption game to her. And she wouldn't be implausible. It's exactly what you need, she's innocent, she's abused, and she doesn't fight back because she doesn't know she should. She's confused and doesn't ask for it, she's getting taken advantage of, she's being corrupted.

That's the only way they work. You have to show me a girl that hasn't lived in this universe until this point.

 

[TheSexinati]

I've noticed exactly what you have written about, and It pisses me off.

It's like people expect the female protagonist to be nothing but 'fuck-meat'.

It's degrading just as much to men as it is to women. Afterall, our mothers and sisters are women too and this bullshit pisses me off.

So I leave this message to anyone willing to listen. Please write your women well.

 

[DarthSeduction]

I've noticed exactly what you have written about, and It pisses me off.

It's like people expect the female protagonist to be nothing but 'fuck-meat'.

It's degrading just as much to men as it is to women. Afterall, our mothers and sisters are women too and this bullshit pisses me off.

So I leave this message to anyone willing to listen. Please write your women well.

I kinda resent the implication that we can only feel for women through sympathetic bonds and not through personal empathy, but thanks for your support.

 

[TheSexinati]

I kinda resent the implication that we can only feel for women through sympathetic bonds and not through personal empathy, but thanks for your support.

Well, I feel personal empathy as well I just didn't write it down.

What I wrote was largely pre-empted by some comments that I recently read on another site, unfortunately these days women are going around saying that Men don't care about women or rape victims et cetera (Or worse, that we all engage in it, because Patriarchy!), which drives me up the wall. We do care, Not all of us, granted, but a big majority.

That said, these 'women' that I speak of are likely the vocal minority of Ultra-feminists who are in it for Inequality rather than equality. I am quite :test3: with those people. I cannot really feel too much empathy inside myself when dealing with those types of people, just a little smidgen.

With my girl-friends, I have a good deal of personal empathy, I have this with most of my friends. That said, I don't know all that many women. Thus I am unfortunately barraged by negative opinions by crazy people on the internet and I feel incredibly angry with people.

So in summary I care about how women are portrayed. I don't want female protagonists to be written off as dumb bimbo's just so they can have them get fucked by undesirable people in undesirable situations. Everyone has the opportunity to give a good portrayal of women, but seemingly people don't do that.

 

[Memorin]

In the end, please remember that this is porn game we're talking about. If a writer successfully makes a game sexy, fun and realistic then kudos to them, but most of us just want to see our forbidden fantasies realized in dream world. If realism - or at least the current world's brand of realism - are to be realized, most of those stuff would never even make it past the planning stage.

 

[Chel]

I am sorry but this really seems to boil down to "I don't like it, thus this shouldn't be a thing".
As a girl, who mostly plays games with female protagonists here, at the end of the day i am playing those games to relax/get myself off.
And honestly, i prefer games that allow me to both, get to the hot shit quick AND if i feel like it, read the story.

Also, cant the storyteller tell the story that he himself likes?

Can't people who have a different taste from you, just you know, co-exist?
Why is it them who have to change?

 

[TheSexinati]

In the end, please remember that this is porn game we're talking about. If a writer successfully makes a game sexy, fun and realistic then kudos to them, but most of us just want to see our forbidden fantasies realized in dream world.

And honestly, i prefer games that allow me to both, get to the hot shit quick AND if i feel like it, read the story.

There is always room for both. Unrealistic porn stories should exist, as porn is ultimately about wish-fulfillment. That said, a good story with porn added in can also be just as fulfilling, the difference is in how long it takes to reach the 'sex'. Thus, let us all have our cakes and eat them, for I am glad to be in what I think is a renaissance of sex-game creation. Since around 2015 they've seemingly gotten popular, so I drink to that.

May the fucking never die!

 

[Memorin]

Normally, if I want anything that resembles a good story I'd go to visual novels instead of any other porn genre. If you choose your VNs well, the porn is a breath of life that gives the story an extra shade of color that's normally missing in a lot of mediums because 'think of the kids!'. Interaction during sex isn't always just sex, sometimes there are intimate and touching moments that can only occur during sex.

Personal opinion, but I'm pretty sure kids of older times probably have sex the second they can ejaculate and they still turn out to be fine people. Just saying.

 

[IhaveNoPornAndIMustFap]

I am sorry but this really seems to boil down to "I don't like it, thus this shouldn't be a thing".
As a girl, who mostly plays games with female protagonists here, at the end of the day i am playing those games to relax/get myself off.
And honestly, i prefer games that allow me to both, get to the hot shit quick AND if i feel like it, read the story.

Also, cant the storyteller tell the story that he himself likes?

Can't people who have a different taste from you, just you know, co-exist?
Why is it them who have to change?

Wait, are you saying you like porn plots that are about mentally retarded girls getting abused and extorted by a population of male creeps with inane schemes that any girl over the age of 12 shouldn't fall for? I mean if you do like girls getting abused, that's perfectly fine, I feel ya, I absolutely enjoy some good force/blackmail/rape in my porn, but even then it can be done better than simply having the girl be an absolute retard without a will of her own, living in a world where EVERYONE is a creep or rapist.

 

[Chel]

Wait, are you saying you like porn plots that are about mentally retarded girls getting abused and extorted by a population of male creeps with inane schemes that any girl over the age of 12 shouldn't fall for? I mean if you do like girls get abused, that's perfectly fine, I feel ya, I absolutely enjoy some good force/blackmail/rape in my porn, but even then it can be done better than simply having the girl be an absolute retard without a will of her own, living in a world where EVERYONE is a creep or rapist.

If you are asking for real, then yes.
I don't look for realism in my porn, and hardly ever put myself in the protagonists shoes.
And like, i don't understand how this counters my point, which was that not all games have to go for everyone.

 

[DarthSeduction]

In the end, please remember that this is porn game we're talking about. If a writer successfully makes a game sexy, fun and realistic then kudos to them, but most of us just want to see our forbidden fantasies realized in dream world. If realism - or at least the current world's brand of realism - are to be realized, most of those stuff would never even make it past the planning stage.

There's a difference between what you're calling realism and plausibility. All I'm asking for is for the author to meet me halfway. If you'd read I've praised Coceter Chronicles. That's a game where you're part demon part elf part futanari angel decended from the goddess of sex. It's about plausibility not realism. The implication that porn games shouldn't be held to the same standard as all other forms of storytelling is asinine. There's a way to tell these stories and they simply aren't managing to do it. I can't sit there and be entertained while I'm frustrated by the way the game forces me to behave.

My own game, still in development, deals with a twincestuous romance. Before I let my two characters even really interact, I have made you the audience see them in a way that makes this future possible. The male twin wakes to his own father shoving his dick into the boys mouth. The female twin stumbles upon this scene and kills their father to save him. This creates a shift in their relationship where the male twin all but worships his sister as his savior, and where she begins to have feelings for him due to the intimacy of their new relationship.

It doesn't take much to set up a story in a plausible fashion. You just have to be willing to write it. As I said, the best way to write this story is to make the MC a Born Hot Yesterday trope. Makes her a sexy adult while giving her the naivety needed to be forced into all these situations. Or if you're really looking for a way to make this game type fun, make her the character @IhaveNoPornAndIMustFap mentioned, a woman who's actively seeking a chance to be molested. Rapeplay is a real fetish, and it would serve the purpose so much better.

 

[DarthSeduction]

I am sorry but this really seems to boil down to "I don't like it, thus this shouldn't be a thing".
As a girl, who mostly plays games with female protagonists here, at the end of the day i am playing those games to relax/get myself off.
And honestly, i prefer games that allow me to both, get to the hot shit quick AND if i feel like it, read the story.

Also, cant the storyteller tell the story that he himself likes?

Can't people who have a different taste from you, just you know, co-exist?
Why is it them who have to change?

Because there is an objective fact of the characters not being plausible. What part of that is so difficult to understand? It's not that I don't like the premise entirely, it's that I keep getting sucked out of the story because it makes no fucking sense. Good Girl Gone Bad doesn't make you wait long for sex, yet it has a great story. Coceter Chronicles doesn't make you wait long for sex, yet it has a great story, I Love Daddy doesn't make you wait long for sex, yet it's got a great story. Zoe's Temptations doesn't make you wait long for sex, yet it's got a great story.

All 4 of those are corruption games. The difference? The female protagonists have depth. They aren't just a hole for the male characters to fill. Again, I'm not saying there can't be a corruption based game where you're molested, I simply want the character to reflect the actions of the story. If she is faced with a decision I want to see options and repercussions. If you're offered to willingly go along with blackmail or fight it, send me to jail or rape me. Don't putz out and end your game. Make me find a way out of jail. Give me the choice to fuck the warden or the big tranny for protection from the other inmates while I contact a friend or family member on the outside to get me out.

Write a fucking story that makes sense, that has consequences. Don't limit me to a box that you dictate. Give my character depth. Flesh out my relationships to make me care about them or give me the option to abandon them entirely. Stop making the boyfriend a cuck every damned time. Maybe make him just as bad. Have me dating a biker who shares me with his friends. Be original and do something other than the basic af shit they are doing. Because if I wanted to see and implausible blackmail scenario for a few minutes and a quick fap, I'd just go to pornhub.

 

[DarthSeduction]

Normally, if I want anything that resembles a good story I'd go to visual novels instead of any other porn genre. If you choose your VNs well, the porn is a breath of life that gives the story an extra shade of color that's normally missing in a lot of mediums because 'think of the kids!'. Interaction during sex isn't always just sex, sometimes there are intimate and touching moments that can only occur during sex.

Personal opinion, but I'm pretty sure kids of older times probably have sex the second they can ejaculate and they still turn out to be fine people. Just saying.

My second favorite game for its story is an RPGM. That's Coceter Chronicles. Don't get me wrong, you're not wrong. But corruption games aren't all RPGM. Sure Anna's Exciting Affection is an RPGM, but Katies Corruption is Ren'Py, and both have the same flaws.

 

[Memorin]

But what if the person's fetish IS to fuck a 'dumb bimbo' or get a 'dumb bimbo' fucked? What if they want nothing more than a 'dumb bimbo' who has seemingly no brains, born into a world who only wants to do everything in their power to fuck her and she lets them? Doesn't that mean that these devs are serving exactly what their customers demands? And before you tell me people don't want it, the fact that this thread is made says enough that there ARE people who demands such 'writing' in such porn games. Sometimes people just DON'T want that kind of plausibility.

Look, I am all for having better stories in porn games. Elena Story makes me sick to the stomach within 10 minutes of gameplay and I never want to play a game like that ever again. However, as I've already said during my very first post in this thread,

"In the end, please remember that this is porn game we're talking about. If a writer successfully makes a game sexy, fun and realistic then kudos to them, but most of us just want to see our forbidden fantasies realized in dream world. If realism - or at least the current world's brand of realism - are to be realized, most of those stuff would never even make it past the planning stage."