Alternatives to Patreon - Maybe for Adult games

Yoshiiki

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This an exception, not the rule. Very few ever make close to that much.
And even those few don't make any proper use of it. Well, not saying how they should deal with their money, but since it's in the open like that, I can comment on it.

That's literally what I said. 'Patrons and players alike should realize that for now, porn game development is a hobby, with some lucky few who have the time to commit full time.' But up and coming developers need to realize that they more than likely won't make it as big as they think. Almost every day there is a new game where they have a Patreon goal of $3,000, and all they have is a shitty incest VN with basic Daz models and the same storylines as the popular games.
That sounds more like trying to make an easy buck rather than a hobby. Hobby is something you enjoy doing and spending money on. Not something you expect to use for making money (it can be an extra, but if you stop when money stops flowing from it, it's not a hobby).
But all of this is assuming that most devs are just in it for the money and charge for their games, while some use Patreon as a tip jar and make the game regardless of 'budget'
Hmmm... I would say that majority are in for the shekels and tiny percentage actually do it because they have a need to create. However, doing something for money is fine, there is nothing wrong with that. As long as you aren't a fucking whore that gets wet after someone shows you some green papers. Money is a tool, and a person never should be a slave to their tools.
That being said... The issue doesn't lie in the fact they expect to make good money, it's the lack of imagination. There are always risks and a person should be aware as it helps in rising percentage of good judgment.

Slight back on the topic. From what I am seeing right now and if things stay this way... Seems like window for making patreon alternative has been completely shut down... Sure, there wasn't much chance in the beginning, but it was bigger than now. Oh well.
 

gunderson

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Hmmm... I would say that majority are in for the shekels and tiny percentage actually do it because they have a need to create. However, doing something for money is fine, there is nothing wrong with that...Money is a tool, and a person never should be a slave to their tools.
That being said...The issue doesn't lie in the fact they expect to make good money, it's the lack of imagination. There are always risks and a person should be aware as it helps in rising percentage of good judgment.
Slight back on the topic. From what I am seeing right now and if things stay this way... Seems like window for making patreon alternative has been completely shut down... Sure, there wasn't much chance in the beginning, but it was bigger than now. Oh well.
As far as the window shutting (at least for right now) on Patreon alternatives, I'd tend to agree with you. That's exactly why I think developing and publishing for free IS the real alternative, as it has always been.

The trouble with Patreon money is that it's earmarked for spending. Some for salary, sure, but if your game really mostly needs coding work for a few months before it's ready for a new release, your backers are going to get antsy. Then it's not just a tool but also a burden.

If, on the other hand, your money comes from your own work outside the field, then it's up to your discretion as to how you spend it. You never have to ask or worry about the question 'do I dip into the development fund for shit I need/want?' because nobody gave you that money earmarked for development in the first place and you can make your own choices. And as countless others have done in the past, once you're not selling your game for profit anymore, different tools open up. It's much easier to use real images of porn stars without getting into a legal hassle, for example, rather than being forced to use 3D images or commissioned drawings (this is unquestionably my favorite feature from The Company, and I think one of the biggest worries of its fans that it will get removed, which is why Westane has to repeat over and over and over that the porn star images are safe). You can take images and ideas more directly for real properties that inspire you. And if you want to take a break from development or quit altogether, who's going to stop you? You're developing, hopefully, for the love of the game/your muse.

You also, let's not downplay this one, have time on your side when you're making a free game. People who love your games may get annoyed that it takes you six months to get a particular update out, but maybe that's just how long it takes you to solve a problem you ran into. Maybe it requires a lot of research and bug fixing and testing and re-thinking, and the game is that much better for it. On Patreon, you have maybe one to three months to 'wow' people before you're in danger of losing some of that precious funding that was the whole point of giving up some creative freedom.

And, of course, fucking creative freedom. If the moral guardians have your fetish in their crosshairs, making a free game with that fetish is the perfect means to give them a finger in a way they can't do shit about.

Again, the point is not to try to replace Patreon. The point is that this is an alternative. Costs and benefits. Maybe you get fewer completed games, but in my experience a far greater proportion of the free indie porn games are worth playing than the ones people are trying to charge money for on Patreon. And if you do want to eventually try to make a game for profit somewhere down the road, making a free game is a great way to get practice without the burden of having to live up to the expectations of a group of fans/customers who are paying you when you're not even sure yet if you can even make a good game or not.
 

Yoshiiki

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Here is an idea:
Have a budget ready, in simplest way, it covers your life expenses. Set up a patreon or whatever and continue working. You can work full time, draining your budget. If a patreon works and starts covering your life expenses, your initial budget gets frozen and converts into "in case of..." money (so a money you should already have on top of your initial budget, so you don't get fucked if your budget reaches 0 and your project was a flop).
"But where I can get all that money???" Dunno, get a good job, make some, save some? Take a loan? There are options... But every single one is covered in possible risk and that's a big no-no for some fucks, ain't it?
It's a nice possibility to get back money you are investing if your idea was good enough. If not, you lost money.
And I am sorry, but normally you pump money into a business, if it flops, you lost majority of that money. That's how it works. If there is no risk, people don't give a fuck, mix it with mindset that doesn't account any problems and have only shiver of imagination to plan ahead one week... This is exactly why patreon can be easily abused, possible risks are close to zero.
Such makes it a perfect platform to scam and milk people and amount of dickheads doing that is just disgusting. But both sides are to blame. Patrons themselves don't question and aren't harsh enough towards people they are giving money to, because they are not aware.
That's why steam would be a better platform for this, as it was mentioned way earlier. Environment is much harsher and demanding, most of patreon creators wouldn't survive.
If I were to change something on Patreon, it would be a reminder sent to people every 2 months, reminding them who they are supporting and how much they spent on each creator in total. This would force people to think more about it, but wouldn't be as aggressive as other methods. You would see a lot of money going down and down, which would force creators to start working to keep their income.
But that would mean a lost money for Patreon, so not going to happen.

For me "free" games that are made as a hobby, should be an extra to already established market of paid games and not other way around. Generally if I see the game that will be "free", I am assuming it's never going to be finished. Most of the time I am correct (no idea if it's the same for ones that have 3dCG made in daz3d as I avoid them).
Paid titles are a different story... If a creator wants to make money, they need to invest money, create and sell. Since patreon is not a thing in Japan, that's exactly why their adult games market works.
In case of the west, it started in a weird mix of paid crap and free crap, so no one gave a fuck and people continued to translate moonspeak. Then crowdfunding came screaming like crazy.
So right now, we have a case of creators that take no risks, don't really care, get money and everything is fine and dandy.
Luckily, at some point people will start being more harsh toward adult games, no-effort-gib-shekels developers will hit the wall and west game porn industry will be seen as inferior when compared with Japanese one. I already mentioned that way earlier. The funny thing is the reason for this comparison. People will have higher demands and they will start looking... And they will find something better.

So while I do shit a lot on patreon and developers, I know that there is an upper limit to everything. No clue how many years, but it will come, always does.
Also, I am aware that an argument of "high horse" could be used here and probably that's the vibe people can get from it. Fine, maybe I am sitting on one, maybe not, don't really care because time will tell and judgment will be made then.
 

gunderson

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For me "free" games that are made as a hobby, should be an extra to already established market of paid games and not other way around. Generally if I see the game that will be "free", I am assuming it's never going to be finished. Most of the time I am correct (no idea if it's the same for ones that have 3dCG made in daz3d as I avoid them).
Interesting perspective. Personally, I assume that if a game is on Patreon it's not only a) Never going to be finished, but also b) One of the nearly infinite cases of boring identical shovelware.

There are more than a few cases of legitimately good games on Patreon and/or games on Patreon that actually get finished, but the vast majority of them are terrible and/or get abandoned quickly.

Not sure where you got the idea that free games are always crap or always get abandoned. See: Corruption of Champions, decades of games on the AIFgames archive, Free Cities, the first two Opala games, hundreds of older games on the hypnopics archive, Goddamn thousands of games on tfgamessite, et fucking cetera. MOST of the worthwhile western porn games were developed for free. It just sounds like you haven't played them yet. I'd suggest you go explore that scene for a while before claiming that the only way to make good games in the West is via Patreon.
 

Yoshiiki

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Interesting perspective. Personally, I assume that if a game is on Patreon it's not only a) Never going to be finished, but also b) One of the nearly infinite cases of boring identical shovelware.

There are more than a few cases of legitimately good games on Patreon and/or games on Patreon that actually get finished, but the vast majority of them are terrible and/or get abandoned quickly.

Not sure where you got the idea that free games are always crap or always get abandoned. See: Corruption of Champions, decades of games on the AIFgames archive, Free Cities, the first two Opala games, hundreds of older games on the hypnopics archive, Goddamn thousands of games on tfgamessite, et fucking cetera. MOST of the worthwhile western porn games were developed for free. It just sounds like you haven't played them yet. I'd suggest you go explore that scene for a while before claiming that the only way to make good games in the West is via Patreon.
And I will still "assume" that way. If my assumption was incorrect, then my interest is picked and I generally follow/support that person. May be earlier, depends if I have enough information to tell what kind of person creator is (which is easy in person, hard as fuck with just text). And to be fair, in first part of your reponse here you just did the same :D
One doesn't exclude the other and being wrong on negative assumption is a positive thing rather than being correct.
Though, never said all free games are always crap, I do assume it and I am happy each time when proven wrong.
This however is more of a personal taste issue. For one, game A will be great, for another it will be crap. Personally I need some visuals, story and at least fine dialogues. If I am forced to grind shit for hours to get a blowjob scene, if decisions don't really matter or just influence "last" scene, if I don't like characters, if a game treats me like I can't think for myself, if it's rigged with forced propaganda or if story logical structure makes no damn sense... Then yeah, in my view it's crap.
I have standards, games - be it adult or not - are created for me as an potential customer. While sure, scope is generalized for many people, my wallet will speak if I like something or not. And no, I don't fucking care if it's from this or that company or if everyone got it - if it's shit I am not buying it to make a point.

And as a potential provider of goods, a creator should keep that in mind. If you are getting 10$, then at least try to provide and do good work, just out of respect to those people that decided to trust you and gave you money. It doesn't need to be something big, but people can tell and see.
Dunno, maybe I am just old, but lack of honesty and communication often fucks shit up.

Anyway, seriously, I am fucking off for now, I have shit to do and this took quite a chunk of my time XD
 
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OhWee

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Just leaving this link here.

It's still in 'startup' mode, so nothing to see here yet, but if it goes anywhere, might be an option once it fully launches.

Sponsorion.com is also still in 'construction' mode. They haven't updated their blog since May, so no new news as of yet.
 
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Yoshiiki

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Just leaving this link here.

It's still in 'startup' mode, so nothing to see here yet, but if it goes anywhere, might be an option once it fully launches.

Sponsorion.com is also still in 'construction' mode. They haven't updated their blog since May, so no new news as of yet.
What payment processors are they going to use?
That's so far the only question right now, so I will wait until that's released as it will determine a lot.
 

HiEv

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What payment processors are they going to use?
That's so far the only question right now, so I will wait until that's released as it will determine a lot.
In the past they've invested in things "from the female contraception brand Luwi to an erotic horror movie by award winning Director Kay Brandt." ( ) I'm not quite sure this is what we're looking for.

Sponsorion.com is also still in 'construction' mode. They haven't updated their blog since May, so no new news as of yet.
I heard from one of the people working on this on one of the Discord servers I'm on, so they're still working on it, it's just more tricky than they expected.
 

Yoshiiki

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In the past they've invested in things "from the female contraception brand Luwi to an erotic horror movie by award winning Director Kay Brandt." ( ) I'm not quite sure this is what we're looking for.
As long as it's pure business, it doesn't matter as much, because money has priority. Just because InCrowd Capital is based in UK, doesn't mean that adult crowdfunding server will be there too - because that would be bad as brits are going insane with their retarded laws and letting their gov fuck them in the ass without lube (lol, that's the reality you passive I-like-being-abused wankers :D).
While questionable age and incest will probably not make it there, due to obvious reasons, depending on money processors there may be bigger freedom than on patreon (which is more related to paypal being fucktards than patreon having some form of moral calling). In the end, it will be extremely hard for them to steal patreon's userbase without pumping money into advertising to reach as many people as possible.
So right now, due to lack of any proper information, it is just another idea, which isn't even third one that popped out...
I heard from one of the people working on this on one of the Discord servers I'm on, so they're still working on it, it's just more tricky than they expected.
Oh yeah, I wonder what could be the wall they hit so far... I can only guess it's money related...
 

OhWee

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OK, while doing my periodic google search on this subject, this came up:



.me is Montenegro btw

Also, under their TOS, they clearly state that creators retain all rights to their content...

Looks more like an addon for your own personal website, but is intriguing nonetheless. Thoughts?


Also, I see several mentions of Facebook subscriptions as an alternative...
 

Yoshiiki

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OK, while doing my periodic google search on this subject, this came up:



.me is Montenegro btw

Also, under their TOS, they clearly state that creators retain all rights to their content...

Looks more like an addon for your own personal website, but is intriguing nonetheless. Thoughts?


Also, I see several mentions of Facebook subscriptions as an alternative...

Still using paypal - this is not solving the issue.

I wonder how long it will take, until people finally realize that there is no problem with patreon, but with paypal as they are the ones on some crusade.
 

OhWee

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Actually, they say they are using Stripe. Paypal is one of the payment options, but the CC's are mentioned directly as well (i.e. doesn't have to be through paypal).

That being said, Stripe's TOS locks out adult businesses, so same difference.


In another place, I saw a reason mentioned r.e. why Paypal, etc. are locking out adult content. That being that the credit card companies have additional fees associated with 'high risk' businesses. In one place, I saw a $750 US surcharge mentioned (one time fee) to process Mastercard and Visa payments for adult content.


So apparently it isn't that MC, Visa, etc. don't want to serve this industry, they just want to charge extra for it...
 
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Yoshiiki

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In another place, I saw a reason mentioned r.e. why Paypal, etc. are locking out adult content. That being that the credit card companies have additional fees associated with 'high risk' businesses. In one place, I saw a $750 US surcharge mentioned (one time fee) to process Mastercard and Visa payments for adult content.


So apparently it isn't that MC, Visa, etc. don't want to serve this industry, they just want to charge extra for it...
That's actually interesting. However, what I would want to know is why? And I mean, why on every PR they make some fucking crusade out of it? It definitely doesn't work well with making it a lower risk... Unless, I am obviously missing something here.
Well, in light of such thing, it's worth checking out, so I will need to find extra time to get as much information as I can.
 

HiEv

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That's actually interesting. However, what I would want to know is why? And I mean, why on every PR they make some fucking crusade out of it? It definitely doesn't work well with making it a lower risk... Unless, I am obviously missing something here.
Well, in light of such thing, it's worth checking out, so I will need to find extra time to get as much information as I can.
OhWee is correct. I've seen another source say that they're charged a yearly $1000 fee to handle "high-risk" charges, such as porn. This is supposedly because there is a high frequency of chargebacks for material like that (people claiming they didn't buy it, kids using a parent's credit card, etc.).

There are also some payment processors, such as , which specifically handle high-risk transactions, though at a slightly higher processing cost than other payment processors. (They've been in business for 20 years, so they know what they're doing too.) I know the pledge site uses them, unfortunately the site is oddly secretive (you have to apply before you can even find a link to ), so it's hard to judge if they're any good or not. So far the worst I've found about them is that they can sometimes take months to get back to people about their applications.

That said, Steam has specifically stated that their policies weren't/aren't as the result of pressure from their payment processors. "Similarly, people have falsely assumed these decisions are heavily affected by our payment processors, or outside interest groups. Nope, it's just us grappling with a really hard problem." ( )

So, the cause may be financial interests, moral concerns, or some combination of both. It's hard to be certain if they don't clear up their reasoning like Steam did.
 

OhWee

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just posted a new update:

Quoting from Sponsorion's tumblr page:

August update
Hey Everyone,

Sponsorion Team here! The website development is chugging along, we’re currently working on designing the dashboard. Our thoughts on the matter are that it’d be better if all of your various account settings and info-graphics were found in the same place, instead of spread out across “settings”, “dashboard”, “secret treehouse closet (shh)”, etc. like you see on certain other sites. That’s proven quite difficult, however, as creator accounts have quite a lot of stuff to see!

We’ve been asked if we’re going to have pledge growth and other analytics offered by our competitors – yes, that is something we’re coding into the site. Our team recognizes that this is your business, and that you’re going to want to know these things! We also want to make it easier to see an individual supporter’s proceeds over time by clicking their name, which can be useful if you have rewards that are accrued over time.



Storefront Functionality

Another thing we’re currently working on is additional storefront functionality – the ability to offer 1-time digital purchases in addition to ongoing pledges. Our reasoning is as follows: 1) Aside from needing to code it, this wouldn’t significantly increase the ongoing workload post-live or otherwise delay going live more than a couple weeks. This is important as we don’t want to wear too many hats while starting out – this functionality will be able to use most of our preexisting set up with small tweaks.2) We know many creators have both crowdfunding accounts and storefront-type (PDFs for sale, etc) accounts spread out across multiple sites, having them all in one place would be to their benefit (and our own).



Testing the Waters

We’ve also been asked if we’re going to allow creators to set up shop on our site while also using other sites. Maybe they want to use us as a backup, or just want to see how it goes before fully moving their operations over. Of course we’ll allow that! We understand completely. Please, feel free to make an account with us and try Sponsorion for yourself once we’re live. We are confident you’ll be glad you did!​
 

Mwanted

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Can someone that is following the topic kindly sum up what actually are the *real* alternatives growing up (and if there's a sort of eta for those still in development)?
I really really want to stop giving my money to Patreon and their idiotic tos.
 

seyfer110

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Can someone that is following the topic kindly sum up what actually are the *real* alternatives growing up (and if there's a sort of eta for those still in development)?
I really really want to stop giving my money to Patreon and their idiotic tos.
REAL alternatives ready to be used, affordable, with low fees and reliable like patreon?? Not a single one, probably.
 

Mwanted

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Anyway..a lot of devs won't admit that, but I'm 100% sure most of them started purging even the slightest out of the tos or presumably out of the tos content out of their games since the start of this bullshit.
I'm not saying that I don't understand them, but I now know of several games that basically were ruined (quality and creativity wise) by the 180° turnarounds they had to do to not risk getting banned by Patreon. Others just abandoned, or started their projects already with that kind of censorship in mind.
It's really really sad, I hope somethng will come up soon.
 

Volta

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It's the same with all of the internet giants, they are effectively monopolies which gives them the freedom to dictate the terms, be it Youtube, Facebook, Amazon, Google, Paypal or Patreon we need alternatives, viable alternatives, though i won't hold my breath on seeing any of them anytime soon.