Alternatives to Patreon - Maybe for Adult games

[Ignazzio]

As it wasn't mentioned in this thread: Steam will soon remove their ban on erotic content. If that's true, it will most likely take over most of the market so no alternative or even Patreon will be able to deal with it.

 

[Yoshiiki]

As it wasn't mentioned in this thread: Steam will soon remove their ban on erotic content. If that's true, it will most likely take over most of the market so no alternative or even Patreon will be able to deal with it.

Why that wouldn't be true? Their recent "ban" was a predicted failure, so no shock here. Especially now, when by default profiles are private it may move some people onto buying adult games. Scope of this will depend solely on developers. If all they can provide is crap designed to milk money, it won't do any good and won't even get close to taking over the market. So looking at what west devs can provide and comparing it to what's on the Japanese market, it's a question of: Will Japanese devs decide to use this? If yes, then they will be the winners of this. If no, then 2/3 will be flooded with crap, there will be some talking on this and topic will die in less than a month.
That aside, patreon and steam greenlight are two different things, work in a different way and both can exists alongside without doing much damage to each other so not much will change here. If anything, it will create additional income for the developers (or extra milking option).
So... nah, steam lifting a ban on adult games is not that big of a deal.

 

[Ignazzio]

Why that wouldn't be true? Their recent "ban" was a predicted failure, so no shock here. Especially now, when by default profiles are private it may move some people onto buying adult games. Scope of this will depend solely on developers. If all they can provide is crap designed to milk money, it won't do any good and won't even get close to taking over the market. So looking at what west devs can provide and comparing it to what's on the Japanese market, it's a question of: Will Japanese devs decide to use this? If yes, then they will be the winners of this. If no, then 2/3 will be flooded with crap, there will be some talking on this and topic will die in less than a month.
That aside, patreon and steam greenlight are two different things, work in a different way and both can exists alongside without doing much damage to each other so not much will change here. If anything, it will create additional income for the developers (or extra milking option).
So... nah, steam lifting a ban on adult games is not that big of a deal.

I have my doubts about that. I can't imagine at this point Steam filled with extreme tabbos and it would be a matter of time for incest, rape etc. to come. I wouldn't be surprised if they would go back on their rules in that case and close it again. If not and Steam will open itself for erotic devs it will ofc kill Patreon market and any other. It's always like that - devs will always pick bigger money rather than smaller and migrate to the bigger platform. Steam has tons of pros in comparison and a very few cons. Much bigger income even if project is failure, no monthly updates, no direct impact of playerbase on dev's vision etc. I can't see any other platform that could compete with it. Ofc if Japanese devs will start to use it and quality VNs will come in mass it will be more or less done already as it's Japan that owns erotic market.

 

[Yoshiiki]

I have my doubts about that. I can't imagine at this point Steam filled with extreme tabbos and it would be a matter of time for incest, rape etc. to come. I wouldn't be surprised if they would go back on their rules in that case and close it again. If not and Steam will open itself for erotic devs it will ofc kill Patreon market and any other. It's always like that - devs will always pick bigger money rather than smaller and migrate to the bigger platform. Steam has tons of pros in comparison and a very few cons. Much bigger income even if project is failure, no monthly updates, no direct impact of playerbase on dev's vision etc. I can't see any other platform that could compete with it. Ofc if Japanese devs will start to use it and quality VNs will come in mass it will be more or less done already as it's Japan that owns erotic market.

Ok, you are mixing few things in one thing, maybe I should have divided it more. One by one.

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EDIT:
Come on, was it really long enough to put it into a spoiler? xD
Also, joking, it's fine, I don't mind

 

[Ignazzio]

Ok, you are mixing few things in one thing, maybe I should have divided it more. One by one.

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EDIT:
Come on, was it really long enough to put it into a spoiler? XD
Also, joking, it's fine, I don't mind

Long enough but I've read it
- First point you're right. Steam in general requires much higher quality so that's an issue for many devs. Failure on Patreon will make like 200$ per month when failure will make much more on Steam. But failure project from Steam would be probably quite succesful on Patreon as it requires some content. Let's say I'm going back on that.
- Monthly updates aren't required anywhere except for our small gaming industry if dev wishes to grow. Data just shows that without it dev is being stagnant or very slowly growing at best. That's almost requirement and if you're here long enough you probably know that. That's completely different than on Steam where game is usually released finished or close to it with some later updates or DLCs. Monthly updates exist on Patreon only because of player's fluctuation which doesn't exist on Steam. I'm sure devs would prefer to release updates per 3 or even more months if they could afford that.
- I wasn't specific enough with that one - no direct impact to such an extent. Ofc players will always have an impact on a project but there is a huge difference when dev is addicted to their monthly presence. Big Brother is like a flag example of a game changed with each update to fit Patron's vision when on Steam it would more than likely look much different. Monthly updates push player's influence much further than standard development. That's ofc just my sole opinion but I find such influence cancerous at best.
- Problem with it is a fact that Patreon is not a store. It's a support platform and as such it's unreliable for any dev. In a past year we could see how chaotic it became with their changes. Steam ofc is also chaotic sometimes but the thing is that Steam can't push games out of his platform as it makes a living out of it when Patreon can gain a lot on just youtubers and other creators. You're right that playerbase might differ and project might be on both sites at the same time. The thing is that difference in style of development is so vast that majority of Patreon projects wouldn't be able to enter Steam with how far from being finished they are and if games would have low quality their income on Patreon would be minimal without monthly updates. Time will tell but my (probably overly optimistic) prediction requires Japanese devs to come and attract attention similiar to DLsite. I know it's not that simple but even now we have quite a few VNs on Steam and without censorship there should be much more. At least the biggest and most popular. Number high enough might gather enough crowd around it for devs to migrate there as the major thing with our market is a fact that it's unstable and barely existing. DLsite is like an anchor for Japanese devs (even tho they have other means to sell their products) but it's a normal store. We have a small support-gathering site which we all know was never meant to support such a market. Stabilization is important and our market has to balance itself at some point as it has a huge growth potential. Steam might be a place or not. I have my hopes about it

 

[Yoshiiki]

Long enough but I've read it
- First point you're right. Steam in general requires much higher quality so that's an issue for many devs. Failure on Patreon will make like 200$ per month when failure will make much more on Steam. But failure project from Steam would be probably quite succesful on Patreon as it requires some content. Let's say I'm going back on that.

One thing to add though, without proper promotion even patreon won't help

- Monthly updates aren't required anywhere except for our small gaming industry if dev wishes to grow. Data just shows that without it dev is being stagnant or very slowly growing at best. That's almost requirement and if you're here long enough you probably know that. That's completely different than on Steam where game is usually released finished or close to it with some later updates or DLCs. Monthly updates exist on Patreon only because of player's fluctuation which doesn't exist on Steam. I'm sure devs would prefer to release updates per 3 or even more months if they could afford that.

Semantics, we were actually talking about exact same issue then. Well, depending on devs, they either would want to have time to work on their projects or just suck money without working

- I wasn't specific enough with that one - no direct impact to such an extent. Ofc players will always have an impact on a project but there is a huge difference when dev is addicted to their monthly presence. Big Brother is like a flag example of a game changed with each update to fit Patron's vision when on Steam it would more than likely look much different. Monthly updates push player's influence much further than standard development. That's ofc just my sole opinion but I find such influence cancerous at best.

If it's platform enforced change, then yeah. Still a dev that adds furries, NTR, futas or any other kink that wasn't originally planned just because people demand it (or to hit every group), in my eyes is just confused idiot that doesn't know what he is even doing or is interested in money and not creating. Both are bad, but only one has malicious intent behind it. However, if game originally had, let's say "hunger bar" that's more annoying that fun and people shit on that, it will probably be removed. But yeah, this can go both ways so a dev should know when to say "NO" even if it may hurt his "sales" because he doesn't want to include certain kink.

- Problem with it is a fact that Patreon is not a store. It's a support platform and as such it's unreliable for any dev. In a past year we could see how chaotic it became with their changes. Steam ofc is also chaotic sometimes but the thing is that Steam can't push games out of his platform as it makes a living out of it when Patreon can gain a lot on just youtubers and other creators. You're right that playerbase might differ and project might be on both sites at the same time. The thing is that difference in style of development is so vast that majority of Patreon projects wouldn't be able to enter Steam with how far from being finished they are and if games would have low quality their income on Patreon would be minimal without monthly updates. Time will tell but my (probably overly optimistic) prediction requires Japanese devs to come and attract attention similiar to DLsite. I know it's not that simple but even now we have quite a few VNs on Steam and without censorship there should be much more. At least the biggest and most popular.

I will oversimplify it and direct it in general. Make content - there is always someone who wants it. Don't focus solely on money but never forget about it. You are creating entertainment first, otherwise it's just another mundane job and I don't care about your boring shit.

Number high enough might gather enough crowd around it for devs to migrate there as the major thing with our market is a fact that it's unstable and barely existing. DLsite is like an anchor for Japanese devs (even tho they have other means to sell their products) but it's a normal store. We have a small support-gathering site which we all know was never meant to support such a market. Stabilization is important and our market has to balance itself at some point as it has a huge growth potential. Steam might be a place or not. I have my hopes about it

Well, market generally tends to balance itself as long as there isn't any monopoly. Migration to DLsite is not going to happen anytime sooner or later. Vast majority of people aren't even aware it exists nor will bother with it.
But let's assume porn games on steam turned into a thing, my predictions would be like this:
General view of west developers - low tier shit, with a lot of grind, often made without much effort.
General view of Japanese devs - good quality, anime shit/3D shit, forced grind, made with effort.
Now, Japanese products will sell well, but not much will be available (in a scope of all adult games), majority of J-devs won't even try going global, cockblock themselves like retarded faggots and that's going to be it. They did it before more than once, so no surprise. Majority of west developers will be viewed as inferior, some with properly screwed heads on will try to emulate similar style and quality to try look like Japanese product.
There will be a lot of shredding in reviews, games that may be considered ok here and now, will be turned into shit and do badly. This will remove a lot of devs back to patreon, like whores kicked out of nightclub.
So generally speaking, gamers have higher demands than so called "normies", so if anyone plans to go onto steam, then leaving PC to render few scenes overnight, dropping some dialogue to go along with it won't do it. In worst case, backlash from steam reviews and annoyed people may bleed back to dev's patreon.

Though, now that I think about it... Assuming patreon goes insane and purges adult games or whole NSFW side, people will have to go to harsher environment which is steam userbase. That will naturally kill low effort developers. This may not be so bad afterall...

 

[Ignazzio]

I generally agree with what you're saying

Though, now that I think about it... Assuming patreon goes insane and purges adult games or whole NSFW side, people will have to go to harsher environment which is steam userbase. That will naturally kill low effort developers. This may not be so bad afterall...

Except for that part. For me that would be extremally positive change. I know people are used to monthly stream of new updates (I do as well) but a finished, decent game from time to time would be definitely an improvement. Not to say that Patreon market is just silly. Store in which you pay 1 creator every month so he will work on another short update? Normal store, whether it is Steam, DLsite or any other platform is the only decent way to balance whole industry. Even smaller Japanese 1-person devs are releasing their games on DLsite and they're doing fine. They just put much more effort into it so it might be actually called a game. I expect such an effort from any dev and even tho I'm probably minority here I wouldn't mind if Patreon would remove all games from their site if there would be such alternative.

 

[Yoshiiki]

I generally agree with what you're saying

Except for that part. For me that would be extremally positive change. I know people are used to monthly stream of new updates (I do as well) but a finished, decent game from time to time would be definitely an improvement. Not to say that Patreon market is just silly. Store in which you pay 1 creator every month so he will work on another short update? Normal store, whether it is Steam, DLsite or any other platform is the only decent way to balance whole industry. Even smaller Japanese 1-person devs are releasing their games on DLsite and they're doing fine. They just put much more effort into it so it might be actually called a game. I expect such an effort from any dev and even tho I'm probably minority here I wouldn't mind if Patreon would remove all games from their site if there would be such alternative.

Huh? Never said it was a bad thing, quite opposite. I would rather see that happening
On one side, patreon is a great way for people to create a game budget that a possible developer may not have. But it was abused way too much. Keep in mind that a lot of Japanese 1-person devs take often more than a year to drop 3-5h long game, while 3h of it is pure grind. From release to release (then again, their fault for not going global). Anyway, not long time ago I lost a lot of respect for many devs, then I started my own project and lost even more respect when I realized how much can be done in certain amount of time by one person, not to mention a team of 2-3 people. Ones that I both support and like can be counted on one hand.
So yeah, if devs would have to move to more demanding market that is much more harsh, I am all for it, because that would mean better games, maybe not as many, but quality over quantity.

 

[uradamus]

From the way the Steam announcement was worded, I would expect much better filtering options to appear at some point later this year. Both in terms of more clear cut exclusion options in the settings and hopefully a much more robust search tool. They also made it clear they plan on enforcing more explicit and honest content disclosures from devs so they can be sure to properly filter games, they are even threatening to boot devs/publishers who are caught lying about their game content.

Once such measure are in place there'd really be no reason for them to turn away anything that isn't flat out illegal and that will likely be on a market by market basis. So say you made a game with swastikas in the content, then that would be able to be sold anywhere other than Germany for the most part, and if you wanted to sell there you'd just have to have a separate repo that complied with German law to cater specifically to that market. If they do things that way - and they already basically do - then it would be up to you as a dev if you wanted to have special versions of your game that cater to markets that outlaw certain elements of your game's content or just ignore those markets and take the hit in lost opportunities like most Japanese adult content devs tend to do with the west.

 

[gamersglory]

Something better coming soon

 

[Yoshiiki]

Hmm... Really?

Well, it seems that possibility of NSFW content purge just dropped down to being quite low.
As I was saying not long ago, Paypal can easily act like good religious company... ops, I meant ideologically progressive company, Patreon on the other side can't afford that.

Now, I would be more interested why this decision was made now? Before anyone jumps to some Internet theories, there would need to be a serious backing up if you want to drop this on steam adult games ban lift. While it may be a first idea, knowing how things are, reason is probably related to something else... All I know is that money is involved

 

[Jag Hond]

True all yours above, I agree in full.

On my little own, I too started to feel more than something 'strange' in their behaviour since, let's say, four or five months ago, when the first event happened to "Dating my Daughter" and just after then to "Big Brother", if I recall the story correctly.

We will see more further... or not? Will be this the case? it's not common for me, but I just don't know what else worse could I expect from these folks. A 'pure' way of thinking and thus making decisions? Jsut now, after raised a relevant amount in financing projects of 'our like' kind? And what and until what point may developers' expectatives and needs coount, I wonder?
But it's not weird, when money is involved. And so right, money always count, and it matters.

Just my one little cent, of course.

With best regards to all.

 

[Delmach]

Now, I would be more interested why this decision was made now?

That im also interested in, especially since there was a pretty big suspension wave around last friday. Many developers had to clean their sites from any nudity. In banners, reward tiers, everywhere. And only now do they think of an age gate.

Now does that mean they can put their adult pictures back to advertise for their content, or is it another gate on top of it all?

Also how the crap could that have taken so long, especially when the whole adult content has clearly been in their focus for a while.

Well im remaining skeptical, and still hope that at least a platform for CC users comes up that would take away a cut of the main platform, and might even rise to more, in the end every website started small.

 

[gunderson]

Remember: the best alternative to Patreon is and always has been just making and distributing whatever shit you want to for free and having a normal job to pay bills. Then if Paypal decides that they want to go full iconoclasm-style and won't allow people to use their service to pay for anything that depicts a living being at all, you're still fine.

Otherwise, it's always going to be a fight to do anything that raises the ire of moral authorities unless there's a respected political movement defending your right to make and consume a particular variety of porn. That and, well, the 'consensual adult non-reproductive incest probably shouldn't be illegal anymore because seriously why isn't all consensual adult non-reproductive sex legal it's Goddamn 2018' movement hasn't been going all that great.

 

[Yoshiiki]

Remember: the best alternative to Patreon is and always has been just making and distributing whatever shit you want to for free and having a normal job to pay bills. Then if Paypal decides that they want to go full iconoclasm-style and won't allow people to use their service to pay for anything that depicts a living being at all, you're still fine.

On one side, I agree.
On another, I don't. Biggest issue with that is time. Let's assume dev has a normal job, spending around 1h to get to it. 8h of daily work, that's already 10h. Life related stuff, in best case, around 2 hours daily. Sleep time, 8h as it's most common. So 20h each workday locked, gives 4h of time to work on a game.
Now, a week has 168h. mon-fri removes 100h, weekends: 16h sleep time + 8h of life related stuff (as it's statistically doubles).
Assuming a dev is just a robot, he/she can easily make use of those 44h left each week, it's more than usual time spent on work each week!
In reality, less than 10h of each week will be spent on development. So... 8-10 years to fully develop a small game? Sounds about right. So yeah, I would rather pay a dev so he/she can turn that into full time job. Be it paying for a full game via steam or other platform, paying in parts using patreon (because all money you spent will add up and I expect it to be around price of a full game) or something else.
While small income projects have excuse of bill paying job + project and thus explaining slow progress, big ones do not... also, good method on filtering potential milkers
Also, wtf do you mean "normal" job? Game developer is a normal job, even if it's porn game dev, job like any other.

 

[uradamus]

Also, wtf do you mean "normal" job? Game developer is a normal job, even if it's porn game dev, job like any other.

While this will vary from dev to dev, I'd go a step further and say it can be a lot more demanding than a normal job. At least it is in my case since I'm doing everything except the engine from scratch (though if I were a real masochist I could even do that as well). I've put decades into developing the necessary skills to make my game, more than even most professionals at typical high end careers put in. In the past 2 months or so I've already put in over 300 hours into modeling alone, 40+ hours into writing, and god only knows how many hours into planning and writing the design docs which are still a work in progress. If I had to guess, I'd say I'm up to around 60 hours a week spent on my game at this point and it still has quite a while before I'll even be putting out a first release.

 

[thecardinal]

So yeah, I would rather pay a dev so he/she can turn that into full time job. Be it paying for a full game via steam or other platform, paying in parts using patreon (because all money you spent will add up and I expect it to be around price of a full game) or something else.

I don't think many devs should make it a goal to quit their jobs on Patreon to work on it full time, their isn't a market for it. Some of the really well-established games can make $1,000 per month, which if only supporting one dev is $250/week. That's basically minimum wage full-time here in America, no one should have to life off that. Patrons and players alike should realize that for now, porn game development is a hobby, with some lucky few who have the time to commit full time.

@uradamus Same. My first game release was planned for months and then the whole Patreon thing happened at the end of last year.

 

[uradamus]

@carnalcardinal Ya, it's rough, but anything I can make off it will be better than I'm getting atm. Suffice it to say, luck wasn't on my side a while back when I moved on a whim to a new city to stay with some friends I made while traveling before securing a job and had my car die as soon as I finished moving in. After a year or two of struggling and barely getting by I ended up moving in to my mother's place, but she lives in the middle of no where out in the woods. Time and my aging computer are just about the only resources I have at my disposal to pull myself back out of the mess I got myself into, so even just a grand a month would be welcome right about now, lol.

You also have to look at it just like any other creative pursuit though. You generally don't ever make much at first on any of them. You need to prove yourself and get your name out there and as long as you keep moving forward and improving it will eventually start to pay off and hopefully more than make up for those early days of poverty. Though like you, I definitely wouldn't recommend anyone give up other means of income early on if they have one. This sort of work is a lot tougher than many think before getting into it and the turn over rate is probably among the worst of any industry out there.

 

[Yoshiiki]

I don't think many devs should make it a goal to quit their jobs on Patreon to work on it full time, their isn't a market for it. Some of the really well-established games can make $1,000 per month, which if only supporting one dev is $250/week. That's basically minimum wage full-time here in America, no one should have to life off that. Patrons and players alike should realize that for now, porn game development is a hobby, with some lucky few who have the time to commit full time.

@uradamus Same. My first game release was planned for months and then the whole Patreon thing happened at the end of last year.

You just want free games XD
Jokes aside. Problem lies in mentality. If there is a patreon page for a PROJECT then I expect money to go fully into development. Whatever money is made on patreon, it's a monthly budget for a game and should be used to pay for development (yes, paying people is also part of that budget). Unless it's a free game, then it should be treated as a tip for a dev team. However, if it's actually successful project (and there are games getting 5-10k monthly) then that means there is a demand. Wise person will acknowledge that and turn it into business. Moron will hope that patreon won't kick them out. Guess under which one most west adult games developers fall? Yeah, exactly. They have no fucking clue how actual business works, how to manage a project, how to manage people... Those are basic skills that can be learned if one wills to learn. Also, those are the ones shitting their pants just thinking about some adult game ban.
Ok, fine, so where is money in all of that? Well, if you are planning to sell your game, there is your answer. Surplus from patreon can easily be used as a starting budget for a new game, combined with sales income.
However, to actually make a buck from sales, you need a product that people will buy - right now majority of games I would spend money on is from Japanese devs.
However, that doesn't mean they are great businessmen themselves... At least not on the global market (on the local one, it's a different story). But, there is some honest work in their products... and while we dirty westerners are just often money cows for them, you can't remove work they put into for their local market as it does (not fully 100%) transfer to global release.

Also, change in dev's behavior due to high patreon income often tells what kind of person he is (or a whole team). What monetary background there was and predictable skills to a degree (Who wants to hire a bad coder and pay them good money?).
However, while unskilled person can start their project, it all depends if that person continues to grow and learn new things to build skills and improve their work... Or if they just sit, do some work for 15h weekly and go back to sitting and not doing anything.

Porn game development is a hobby... Wrong. It can be a hobby as well as it can be someone's work. 25 years ago you could as well be that person saying "game development is a hobby"... Why? Because market in itself isn't that big? Well, look at it today. Movie industry could wish to be where games are right now in terms of entertainment market. I will agree it's not a big market now, but there was, is and will be demand for porn. While adult videos are limited in many ways, games aren't. On top of that, this is an interactive medium, something that neither movies, books or comics can surpass. Market in itself is growing, it's pretty obvious when someone takes a proper look. That however means there is a lot of routes to discover so like with games, it's going to take time before some standards are established... In the west. Japan did a lot of work we can analyze and make some use of it as they won't go global, so it's fine, fuck them, their choice.
So this is how it's going to be:
Market grows -> new, low budget products pop up -> potential customer can't easily tell between good and bad product, it's full on only demand culture -> some time passes up -> customers have some standards and demands now -> low tier products can't provide any of that as it requires bigger budget -> since there is demand, proper supply is created

Right now we are at "new, low budget products pop up", so it's a perfect time to establish yourself on the market. Start low, grow, provide, in best case - create standards. Right now it's all based on gut and luck as people with proper knowledge don't work in this industry (no point in growing market that will start making big money in years when there are already markets with demands providing big money). It's literally what happened to game industry.

@uradamus
Pretty much this. If you lack proper promotion and aren't lucky, only thing you can do is hard work. But as it is with business, especially starting ones, risks are stupidly high. So at that point you need a backup plan or you will be fucked if things go south.
There are literally books for idiots explaining basic stuff of many things used in development, business, marketing, management and so on. Basics are good enough for a start, rest requires ability to think and usage of gained knowledge/experience.
If a stupid and poor person wins in a lottery, after few month he will be back to poor and stupid.
If a wise and poor person wins in a lottery, he will invest that money to make more money and won't be poor anymore.

inb4 post too long, put it in a spoiler.

 

[thecardinal]

However, if it's actually successful project (and there are games getting 5-10k monthly) then that means there is a demand.

This an exception, not the rule. Very few ever make close to that much.

Porn game development is a hobby... Wrong. It can be a hobby as well as it can be someone's work.

That's literally what I said. 'Patrons and players alike should realize that for now, porn game development is a hobby, with some lucky few who have the time to commit full time.' But up and coming developers need to realize that they more than likely won't make it as big as they think. Almost every day there is a new game where they have a Patreon goal of $3,000, and all they have is a shitty incest VN with basic Daz models and the same storylines as the popular games.

But all of this is assuming that most devs are just in it for the money and charge for their games, while some use Patreon as a tip jar and make the game regardless of 'budget'