VN Ren'Py Forgotten Pathways [v0.3] [Ochilochin]

[TKdropemoff]

After finishing 0.2, I have to echo a lot of the complaints so far. I mostly enjoyed 0.1 and was looking forward to see more of the story and get some information about the mysteries. While I enjoyed some small parts of 0.2, and while it had more content and more lewd content than 0.1, it was overwhelmingly unsatisfying as an update.

Several story beats were actively unpleasant, and it felt shallow, while it did its best to make almost every character actively unlikable. The lewd scenes mostly felt out of place rather than fitting smoothly into or complementing the story, and the story spent a LOT of time in the first half of 0.2 in relatively unbroken exposition.

First, I'm going to comment about a few annoying things that aren't directly about the girls and their pasts.

• The end of 0.2 was immensely unsatisfying, with the bad guys getting the upper hand in literally every instance.
• There's a running theme in the game so far of EVERYONE (including the MC) blaming the MC for shit other people do TO him, and the game's writing and the MC just go along with that as if it's somehow true, despite the evidence of the actual events.
• This makes the MC as written into a weak and unsympathetic character, and those are never fun to play. Since he is written as if he agrees that everything's his fault, other than the one time with Hannah and then with Dan, he just never stands up for himself. You say it will change early in Chapter 3, but that doesn't help the game as it currently stands, and the writing of the second half of 0.2 content doesn't give me much hope for it, either. It doesn't feel like you understand what is making him unfun to play. He even calls himself "the worst person in Sirione" for a ton of shit OTHER PEOPLE DID. He even takes responsibility for "hurting Nina", when other people did that to her AND him.
• If Dan isn't lying, even NINA blames the MC, which makes her way shittier as a character and as an LI.
• Beyond that, Dan's decision that Hannah starting shit with the MC is the MC's fault just makes HIM irredeemable, too, which makes Nina far worse as an LI because she idolizes him.
• I even predicted during the party that Dan would assume the worst: that the MC was 'cheating' on Nina with Mya when she led him off at knifepoint, and that he "abandoned" her. And sure enough, at the end of the update, that's EXACTLY what happened, and he just blames the MC anyway even when he finds out the truth (or he doesn't believe him) about how shitty the noble families are.
• It's just such a fucking tedious way to generate conflict between people who should be allies. Sure, there's the option to bitch Dan out, but none of it is for the right reasons, and from the variables, it enables Dan as an antagonist, which will just complicate everything unnecessarily. The end of the update turned Dan into a spineless hypocritical sycophant.
• Scarlet also placed all the blame for everything on the MC, which was incredibly shitty of her. The incident at the bar was literally started by Hannah and indirectly by Tommy, and everything the MC said was 100% deserved by Hannah. That even his allies blame him for it is bullshit. Scarlet even calls the Hannah event and the party events "[the MC] picking fights", when he literally NEVER started anything. It was others attacking him in every instance. This makes Scarlet way shittier as a character and as an LI.
• There is a lot of mystery that is intentionally remaining unrevealed. I understand some of the story reasons for this, but it results in an unsatisfying update (think of each update as a partial story; if an update is not satisfying, then that partial story is itself weak), and it means characters are placing themselves as antagonists by refusing to inform the MC of things he needs to know.

I saw you say this was adapting a completed story, but it's a good idea to understand that what makes for good story in novels and literature is absolutely NOT the same as what makes for good story in AVNs, harem or otherwise. Adapting a story not originally written for an AVN is going to, of necessity, involve more rewriting than it would to adapt a story to, say, a video series, or vice versa.

Now, for the LIs.

First, most harem games penalize not taking all LIs by not replacing their content, and many harem games that have multiple endings require all harem members for the "good" endings. So saying "if you don't like some of them, there are a lot of others" can be disingenuous if this is your plan, and it will result in some updates having almost no content for a person's preferred LIs since so many of them have problems. Also, as a caveat: While I am not personally opposed to former-prostitute LIs, it is a safe bet that there are statistically zero harem fans that like CURRENTLY-prostitute LIs - more on that below. It also wasn't fun having that sprung on me after having a lewd scene with her without having that information. I know you mentioned you already acknowledge that that was a mistake, but you haven't said anything about changing it.

Beyond that, you said that "most of [the LIs] are either virgins or their personal history is irrelevant", but as far as I can tell, this is just NOT true. Maybe one or two are virgins, and the others' sexual pasts absolutely inform (and for the most part cheapen) their lewd scenes with the MC and in several cases, the larger plot. Your story as written and presented so far does not support your statement, and that means you've ended up writing lewd scenes that just aren't very sexy, because there's no emotional connection with the girls, or that emotional connection gets ruined by their other interactions. For a bunch of them, the MC seems to be just another fuck.

Third, virginity inherently improves an LI in a harem game at least in part because it leads to the girl being more devoted to the MC, so if their pasts don't matter, why bother making them NOT be virgins? And if their pasts matter, then the statement above is false.

Now for some more specific comments about the girls and virginity to show my work.

Spoiler: Tracy specifically

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Spoiler: Elise specifically

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Spoiler: Girls who don't count

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Spoiler: The only girls who actually count

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Spoiler: Bonus Round: Non-LI girls with sexual or near-sexual content

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So grand total, of 18 LIs we have:

• 1 virgin (Nina)
• 2 maybe-virgins (Amy, Hannah)
• 2 probably-not-virgins (Skye, Chiara)
• 7 explicitly-not-virgins (Helga, Anna, Scarlet, Sadie, Lilah, Tracy, Elise), four of them with sexual pasts that directly impact the story and absolutely DO matter, and two of those with actively harem-hostile sexual pasts.
• 6 that don't count (2 of those explicitly non-virgin (Cora, Margot), 3 not seen yet (Sofie, Tamara, Hollie/Lila), and 1 probably-not-virgin (Alysa))

TL;DR: I'm not going to tell you how to tell your game's story. It's your game, and your story. But you should be more honest about its content.

If your intent is to have primarily harem fans following/supporting your game, you might want to consider a few changes. LIs who fuck or have fucked other people are drastically less appealing to harem fans than LIs who are narratively meant only for the MC. Harem games are power fantasies, after all, so there's no reason NOT to lean into the fantasy, since the writer decides on everyone's backstories and game plots.

Final note about tags: In your Genre section, you can highlight which tags are what you consider major themes. For the game tags themselves, anything that's present at all needs to be tagged. The prostitution tag absolutely does belong on the game, even though it's not a theme or focus, because there are two characters who are blatantly prostitutes, one of whom is optionally sexually involved with the MC.

wow good I read this..

holy shit you just saved me wasting my time.

yea I read the dev notes but this right here is crucial information for a said "harem" game.

and I will pass.

 

[Tiur]

wow good I read this..

holy shit you just saved me wasting my time.

yea I read the dev notes but this right here is crucial information for a said "harem" game.

and I will pass.

It might be worthwhile to return for the next version. 0.2.2 ends at the same place 0.2 does, and addresses a couple of things I mentioned in the quoted post (while the developer notes address or confirm other parts of it). Fundamentally, I recommend reading the dev notes and making your own choice about the game rather than relying on my frustrated post made when the developer notes message wasn't there, and before a few of the Ch1 revisions.

 

[hyuugo]

i love playing a porn game and forgetting about the porn.
i got emotionally invested in the Best Girl Nina, and it's your fault. bookmarking this now.

 

[Ragnar]

You do realize that the dev wrote that AFTER the discussion he and I had in this thread and in DMs, right? The backstory change to Tracy in this release was specifically a suggestion I made to him, and his clarifications in the OP Developer Notes are a direct result of the discussion.

I was just suggesting a note like the ones in other threads pointing to that explanation to avoid further missunderstandings in the future.

 

[J.R.]

Lost my taste for this game completely with tracy and at the same time my trust in dev. I wonder what else has been forgotten like the prostitution tag maybe NTR will come around the corner and surprise the whole player crowd. And it doesn't help at all that prostitution is changed to stripper. It's just as bad an option. If you even mention the word harem, then all those elements should be out of the game and not just a matter of choice.

Not sure, but do you actually like ONE game here on F95? ALL the latest posts are about games you had to delete or the update was bad or the game is trash or....
Would be nice you find a game you maybe do like

 

[J.R.]

Well, still wondering why you even downloaded this game if you hate such content that much since it's tagged with it
But anyway, it's your choice

 

[dreamtourist]

So, is the MC still a pushover?
Will he get better or is this just one those femdom games, that keeps insisting it isn't?

 

[Tiur]

So, is the MC still a pushover?
Will he get better or is this just one those femdom games, that keeps insisting it isn't?

There isn't any femdom in this game. There isn't even any likely. Only a couple of the girls would even be close to inclined toward it, and IIRC you can reject any sexual interactions with girls (other than flashbacks).

As of the end of 0.2 (and 0.2.2 doesn't add any story), the MC had a lot of shit happen to him, but it wasn't femdom-related in the slightest, and the MC did have a few options to resist or lessen the shit happening to him, as well as call out Dan as a spineless hypocritice. As of the end of 0.2.2, he's in a pretty low state, but he's got allies and I expect we'll see him pick himself back up next story update.

 

[Dark Silence]

There isn't any femdom in this game. There isn't even any likely. Only a couple of the girls would even be close to inclined toward it, and IIRC you can reject any sexual interactions with girls (other than flashbacks).

As of the end of 0.2 (and 0.2.2 doesn't add any story), the MC had a lot of shit happen to him, but it wasn't femdom-related in the slightest, and the MC did have a few options to resist or lessen the shit happening to him, as well as call out Dan as a spineless hypocritice. As of the end of 0.2.2, he's in a pretty low state, but he's got allies and I expect we'll see him pick himself back up next story update.

I just found this game, should I wait to start it next update? I'm also glad that femdom isn't really a thing and if it becomes a thing, I'm glad we can avoid it or other things we don't want.

 

[Tiur]

I just found this game, should I wait to start it next update? I'm also glad that femdom isn't really a thing and if it becomes a thing, I'm glad we can avoid it or other things we don't want.

I think the game will likely be a more satisfying experience if you wait for 0.3 (whichi is what I assume the next story update will be), but that's my own opinion. The current 0.2.2 has a pretty downer ending as it currently stands. If that doesn't bother you, then it shouldn't matter.

 

[Dark Silence]

I think the game will likely be a more satisfying experience if you wait for 0.3 (whichi is what I assume the next story update will be), but that's my own opinion. The current 0.2.2 has a pretty downer ending as it currently stands. If that doesn't bother you, then it shouldn't matter.

I can wait. I've got this marked now. Thanks.

 

[dreamtourist]

I think the game will likely be a more satisfying experience if you wait for 0.3 (whichi is what I assume the next story update will be), but that's my own opinion. The current 0.2.2 has a pretty downer ending as it currently stands. If that doesn't bother you, then it shouldn't matter.

Thanks for clearing that up, didn't want to ruin my first impression of the game if the dev was going to just overhaul the MC in the next version. Even if that doesn't happen, seems like it would be best to wait.

 

[Tiur]

Thanks for clearing that up, didn't want to ruin my first impression of the game if the dev was going to just overhaul the MC in the next version. Even if that doesn't happen, seems like it would be best to wait.

It's not an overhaul, the story just has the MC at what is likely his lowest point at the end of 0.2.2. The MC came off weak because he didn't really do very much for himself in the first couple updates, but the dev assured us a while ago that the next story update will involve him choosing to significantly change his approach. Earlier story is unlikely to go through a lot of revision, given the dev's statements that the story is pre-existing and isn't likely to change.

 

[dreamtourist]

the dev assured us a while ago that the next story update will involve him choosing to significantly change his approach.

Fingers crossed then, I doubt I could stomach putting up with an MC that's a punching bag for the entire game.

 

[goulet1995]

so dev saiys lesbian is avoidable but two girls start making out and the mc auto response is i like it personally i dont and didnt continue after that

 

[Mommysbuttslut]

What an infuriating end to the episode, well done.
Really hoping that we can turn Dan into a girl, steal his lady and make him work at Club Palace on whore night

 

[Ochilochin]

Lost my taste for this game completely with tracy and at the same time my trust in dev. I wonder what else has been forgotten like the prostitution tag maybe NTR will come around the corner and surprise the whole player crowd. And it doesn't help at all that prostitution is changed to stripper. It's just as bad an option. If you even mention the word harem, then all those elements should be out of the game and not just a matter of choice.

Funny how people are so intolerant of mistakes, even in the context of a project in such an early stage and despite numerous apologies. People are a thousand times more laid-back in my paid job Well, for those who haven't lost trust, rest assured because there won't be NTR. Never. Reason: I hate it.

 

[Ochilochin]

Hi, everyone. I confess that I follow what happens here only a little. For those who spent time giving critiques, reviews, and compliments, thank you very much. I always read everything carefully. I am learning, evolving, and enjoying this whole process.

I recently added some points discussed with Tiur in the dev notes, who provided very interesting critiques about the VN. By the way, thank you very much, Tiur, for responding to people, answering questions, or helping them understand if it made sense to play the game.

Version 0.2.2 was just to change some images and fix some typos/bugs (

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). Version 0.3 is in progress and will include ~1400 new renders and ~8-10k new lines of code.

I realize that the controversial ending still leaves many people frustrated, but well, there's not much I can do about it. I'm sorry for those who feel they had a bad experience, but this moment in the story was truly indispensable for a coherent continuation.

As for the change in the MC's attitude, don't worry. It will change. Chapter 3 is almost 65% complete, and well, brace yourselves for changes (for those who are still around lol).

Another point that many discuss with me is the quality of my english. As many know, I'm a solo dev and no, I'm not a native English speaker. I try to write directly in English (avoid using translators), but I know that the dialogues end up with a series of errors or don't sound natural. I do my best, but I know it's not enough for native speakers. The good part is that many people come to talk to me, giving specific suggestions for improvements, and for Chapter 3, I already have volunteers who will help me revise the text. Anyway, little by little, we'll get better =)

Finally, someone above commented about having two characters kissing. If you're interested in knowing exactly what will be skippable in the next chapters,

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I'm taking a little longer to respond to private messages (this applies to discord too) because I just moved to another country and haven't even been able to install wifi at home yet.

Well, a happy new year to everyone. May 2024 bring updates with happy endings

 

[Mommysbuttslut]

Another point that many discuss with me is the quality of my english. As many know, I'm a solo dev and no, I'm not a native English speaker. I try to write directly in English (avoid using translators), but I know that the dialogues end up with a series of errors or don't sound natural. I do my best, but I know it's not enough for native speakers.

Your English is fine, it's clear that you're not a native speaker but if someone has trouble understanding your story or dialogue then they're the ones with bad English.
What I don't get is this weird assumption people have that frustrating is bad. A TV show or more regular videogame where the main characters never experience any hardship, setback or betrayal would just be boring. Sure if it's a storyless sex romp it makes sense to not throw frustrations in but if there's an actual story like you're doing here then it makes perfect sense to have frustrating moments, especially if they contribute to character development. Just keep doing what you're doing, the game's good.

 

[Ochilochin]

Your English is fine, it's clear that you're not a native speaker but if someone has trouble understanding your story or dialogue then they're the ones with bad English.
What I don't get is this weird assumption people have that frustrating is bad. A TV show or more regular videogame where the main characters never experience any hardship, setback or betrayal would just be boring. Sure if it's a storyless sex romp it makes sense to not throw frustrations in but if there's an actual story like you're doing here then it makes perfect sense to have frustrating moments, especially if they contribute to character development. Just keep doing what you're doing, the game's good.

Thank you. Writing in a language that is not my first language makes me feel quite insecure. But now that I have help, I'm optimistic about being able to make the dialogues more natural.

As for moments of frustration, I agree with you. It's part of any "hero's journey" to experience moments of frustration/sadness, and since the proposal of Forgotten Pathways is to adapt a novel I wrote, I would run the risk of throwing the character development in the trash. These are the moments that make me connect the most with a movie/game/book story.

What people claim is that this format deviates from what is expected of a harem AVN. It's different from what they like and ends up being a negative deviation from expectations. But as I mentioned some time ago, if I decided to follow all the execution rules of this type of VN, I would run the risk of abandoning the project.