Huge majority of porn developers here nowadays don't even care and just want money for little work!

Ophanim

Member
May 2, 2018
197
412
While I'm sure many sympathize with how you feel, take some advice and think through what you would like to post before making a post. You generalize and exaggerate alot, which is not only unfair to those lumped into it but can also rub both readers and dev's the wrong way.

"to the point where they make thousands a month for doing nothing." This is incorrect, they do less than you would like and or less than they have done in the past but if they are releasing content they are doing "something" just very slowly.

"And since the upcoming porn developers catch onto this, they begin this 'get rich quick' scheme" This is unfair lumping all new dev's together, "some" might do it BUT some might see that trend and decide to be a dev to do things the right way and you are doing those and the ones not following the trend a disservice by adding them to the list a new bad dev's.



Unless you have a solid way of proving that statement you are being very unfair to a "huge majority of them" Instead you could just say that you feel like more and more dev's do this or it seems to you that the group doing this is growing. If you want to appeal to future dev's and current ones it's best not to exaggerate your point.



It was noticed along time ago and you, yourself pointed out that new dev's have noticed it. So far you post has been calm and while slightly misguided pretty open, try not slip into passive-aggressive.
While you might feel passionately about this, alienating yourself and your point by including hardworking dev's is not the way to go and exaggerating the point will only help in it getting lost in the back and forth of who is actually guilty and to blame.



Going by your example there,
1. You are right you don't need to be a dev to study game design, which is why most people who are not dev's DO NOT study game design and still give their opinions on it as if they were fact.
2. the OP never said anything about a burnt meal, he said the meal was late or didn't come out at all. While you don't need to be a chef to recognize a burnt meal, you do need to be one to know exactly when to add ingredients and at what temperature it needs to cook at etc. Having people come into a kitchen and claiming you can just drop everything in at once does not help.



With this one sentence you have changed the history of artists completely. It might be best to read up on some art history before making sweeping statements that contradict facts.





You need to stop using the word exploiting, players can not be and are not exploited. Players have ALL the tools they need to make an informed choice. They are able to research games / dev's / companies, they are able to contact others who are or have supported those, they are able to pirate content and at the end of the day put all that information together and make an informed choice of how to proceed. At no point does any player have a gun to their head to start or continue supporting a game / dev / company. If someone is too lazy to do that then the blame falls squarely on their own shoulders.




When was the last time you had a coke blak? or maybe a sprite remix? Those were products that were discontinued because the public stopped supporting them. Without support a product fails and it's the same in this case. It's strange that you mention preorders and loot boxes in your previous post and then loot boxes again in this one without giving any context.

So for context, companies and not just AAA ones either offering a free to play model had to find a source of income. Players forget that outside of the coding and design, there are alot of expenses involved and "living off" other franchises is not economically sound. So how do they pay for servers, server maintenance, bandwidth, support staff etc? They introduce in-game store / shops and add cosmetics and QoL items and when those don't sell well? loot boxes and real cash to in-game currencies etc.

If a player owns bf 1,2,3,4,5 your spreadsheets and gambling addict point holds no water as to why they NEED to own bf 6. The fact is they WANT not NEED bf 6. People can't hide behind others addiction and "but they tricked me with an add" forever and at some point will either have to take responsibility for their own choices and actions or live with the consequences.

The fact is the players created the market, the players supported the market and now the players are complaining that the market exists..... Fact is without support products dies, with support products thrive.
Okay, kinda feels like you're being deliberately obtuse and ignoring facts here yourself, but sure. Like, it's hard for me to know where to begin with answering this, because it feels like we live in totally different realities.

But, um, I'll try ig. Consumers cannot be exploited? Are you high? You really need to do your own research on the history of sociology and global economics before you start blaming working class people for being 'lazy', which is in itself an enormously presumptuous blanket statement for you to make. Do you really think the world we live in is a meritocracy, and that the coke blaks of the world just... sink to the bottom without a trace? I would say that sometimes they do, and sometimes everyone copies that bad idea because with enough lies it does still turn a profit. Voting with your wallet can work, sometimes, but nowhere near as effectively as you seem to think. See also, ethics in the fashion industry. And speaking of doing some research, you have to be incredibly, willfully blind to think markets, and demographics, cannot be swayed through application of money, weapons and influence. And sometimes just lies. I would recommend reading up on 'the entire existence and history of the global south' for more information on this topic.

I bring up lootboxing and other such things repeatedly as examples of publishers normalizing actually predatory mechanics within a genre, and why it's a problem unlike 'patreon milking' which I'm unconvinced is even a thing. So it's not so much 'without context' as you not seeming to see the obvious connection where I point out that even if patreon devs were being exploitative, OP is going after the wrong people. Microtransactions are openly predatory, whereas even the most aggressive of patreon gating 'scum dev' actions aren't even in the same ballpark. You've ignored the part where I repeatedly exhort the reader, that is, you, to look up the term in relation to marketing, and why this is relevant to OP's concerns as a far bigger problem than whatever they think Icstor or whoever is up to. I also said that I don't think porn devs are doing that, particularly not on mass as the OP contends, but you never brought that part up.

Look, I'll break it down for you. People who've already made it propagate the idea that anyone can make it because they did, and technically that's true (ignoring inherited wealth, education, etc), but either way that's not the same as everyone making it. This is used as an incentive for workers to put in more than their labor's worth, with the person who has already made it taking a premium on the excess labor. This goes down the chain until you get to the bottom of society, who are demonized as 'lazy' and 'greedy', when that actually better describes the one at the top who has literally more money than they can ever spend inside a tax haven and yet still wants yours. That's the upper eschelons of Ubisoft and Activision-Blizzard management rn, for context. The idea that anyone can make it is broadly a deception, requiring one to ignore a whole swathe of sociopolitical forces, but lying works, clearly, because we're having this discussion in which you're telling me straight-faced that the unregulated free market is totally fair and inviolate ignore those textiles mill workers how did they get in here

It's impossible to compare what patreon devs are doing on here, that is attempting to meet the unmet needs/fetishes of players in order to make money, with what large businesses are doing. They would at best be just kind of trying to copy middle of the market scam strategies that wouldn't be 'too big to fail' in the way something like Google is. Some companies are, in terms of political power, equivalent to entire governmental social institutions (or even small oligarchic states) but utterly divorced from the kinds of responsibilities states are nominally beholden to. Game devs on here don't have the resources to use predictive algorithms, or try to socially engineer a playerbase of millions towards things like particular election results, or holding particular sets of cultural values, etc.

I'm interested in your thoughts on art history, but I'm worried you'll take it as an opportunity to ignore my position if the previous post is anything to go on, and this is already getting wildly off topic. Feel free to message me if you want to chat tho.
 
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Nagozo

Member
Sep 30, 2017
125
244
Man, I love it when a thread goes from "AVN devs bad" to what is essentially a critique of rampant capitalism.

@Nagozo I'm with you 100% on any improvement to the existing rec system. I think most of us are together on some variant of 'the tag system is awful/incomplete'... right? I hope? And rec threads fill a vital role, but they're kinda out of your way unless you already know to look for them.
Bit late but yeah, the tag system seems pretty controversial. I'm leaning more towards 'incomplete' because it does work, it's just that manually tagging a catalogue like this is basically impossible to do accurately. Rec threads are great, but hey, it's not like we don't have technology to do better. Though I was mostly joking; making recommenders is hard and I imagine it's just out of scope for this site, even if it would be a cool addition.
 

MissFortune

I Was Once, Possibly, Maybe, Perhaps… A Harem King
Respected User
Game Developer
Aug 17, 2019
4,692
7,743
Man, at this point I just feel sorry you live this way. I'm not gonna tell you how to live your life but consider whether it's worth sacrificing your health for 12 cents per hour making porn for an ungrateful audience lmao
That's actually the best amount of sleep for most people. If you look into many earned billionaires (meaning non-old money.), you'll see most of them only get 4 and start working again.
 

nulnil

Member
May 18, 2021
448
335
The huge majority of people who whine about "milker devs" have never actually paid for any game they've played. The sole reason they get mad is because they want their games, and if they don't get them quickly enough, they can't help but throw a fit over it.
To be fair, it is a pirate site.
 

morphnet

Active Member
Aug 3, 2017
640
1,509
Okay, kinda feels like you're being deliberately obtuse and ignoring facts here yourself, but sure. Like, it's hard for me to know where to begin with answering this, because it feels like we live in totally different realities.

But, um, I'll try ig. Consumers cannot be exploited? Are you high? You really need to do your own research on the history of sociology and global economics before you start blaming working class people for being 'lazy', which is in itself an enormously presumptuous blanket statement for you to make. Do you really think the world we live in is a meritocracy, and that the coke blaks of the world just... sink to the bottom without a trace? I would say that sometimes they do, and sometimes everyone copies that bad idea because with enough lies it does still turn a profit. Voting with your wallet can work, sometimes, but nowhere near as effectively as you seem to think. See also, ethics in the fashion industry. And speaking of doing some research, you have to be incredibly, willfully blind to think markets, and demographics, cannot be swayed through application of money, weapons and influence. And sometimes just lies. I would recommend reading up on 'the entire existence and history of the global south' for more information on this topic.
Am I high? nope but maybe you are? I never said anything about consumers, I said in context with your replies on porn game players, that they could not be exploited. Exaggerating and taking it from a small base to consumers (everyone) is an insane leap. Calling people lazy, when they have every opportunity to research and gain all needed information before making a choice is not a "enormously presumptuous blanket statement" but a statement of fact.

"that the coke blaks of the world just... sink to the bottom without a trace? I would say that sometimes they do, and sometimes everyone copies that bad idea because with enough lies it does still turn a profit." Now you are creating a reality that does not exist. Coke blak failed, there were no lie that caused copies that turned a profit. You are welcome to "what if" all you like, it still won't change fact or reality that it did NOT happen.

"And speaking of doing some research, you have to be incredibly, willfully blind to think markets, and demographics, cannot be swayed through application of money, weapons and influence." I will say it again...NO ONE is holding a gun to a players head to support a porn game or a dev of a porn game.

I bring up lootboxing and other such things repeatedly as examples of publishers normalizing actually predatory mechanics within a genre, and why it's a problem unlike 'patreon milking' which I'm unconvinced is even a thing. So it's not so much 'without context' as you not seeming to see the obvious connection where I point out that even if patreon devs were being exploitative, OP is going after the wrong people. Microtransactions are openly predatory, whereas even the most aggressive of patreon gating 'scum dev' actions aren't even in the same ballpark. You've ignored the part where I repeatedly exhort the reader, that is, you, to look up the term in relation to marketing, and why this is relevant to OP's concerns as a far bigger problem than whatever they think Icstor or whoever is up to. I also said that I don't think porn devs are doing that, particularly not on mass as the OP contends, but you never brought that part up.
I did read that link you posted and noticed it opened with a nice exaggeration "Game studios are now purposefully designing bad systems and mechanics" if they are going to report the "truth" then how about starting with the whole truth and not an exaggeration to make the problem seem worse than it is??? Do SOME studios do this? yes Do ALL studios do this? NO! but hey why let a little thing like truth stand in the way right?
" Microtransactions are a popular monetization model in tech: apps, games and online services are marketed as “free”, but once you start using the product, you must make small, in-app purchases to access more content. " Let's use the blanket term "free" and add must pay.... :rolleyes: First that statement is incorrect as there are MANY services and games that are free and you never have to pay to get content.... second people must make small in-app purchases for content? No, not at all, they could just go without that content....they want the content they DON'T need the content.... it's their choice and they also have the option of uninstall said app / service / game.
You and sites like that make it sound like people are being forced against their will to do these things. The moment people bring up the FACT that people are free to choose all of a sudden addiction and the like get brought up as if every person is secretly an addict. You were the one to bring up AAA studios and loot boxes and make comparisons we were just pointing out the flaws in that.

Look, I'll break it down for you. People who've already made it propagate the idea that anyone can make it because they did, and technically that's true (ignoring inherited wealth, education, etc), but either way that's not the same as everyone making it.
Not sure what your point is here? "propagate the idea that anyone can make it" and anyone can! As you stated they say ANYONE as in person. They do not "propagate" that everyone can make it.
So I'll break it down for you.... they are saying they made it so some one else can make it, NOT they made it so everyone everywhere can make it....

This is used as an incentive for workers to put in more than their labor's worth, with the person who has already made it taking a premium on the excess labor. This goes down the chain until you get to the bottom of society, who are demonized as 'lazy' and 'greedy', when that actually better describes the one at the top who has literally more money than they can ever spend inside a tax haven and yet still wants yours. That's the upper eschelons of Ubisoft and Activision-Blizzard management rn, for context. The idea that anyone can make it is broadly a deception, requiring one to ignore a whole swathe of sociopolitical forces, but lying works, clearly, because we're having this discussion in which you're telling me straight-faced that the unregulated free market is totally fair and inviolate ignore those textiles mill workers how did they get in here
Again your statement is wrong, "put in more than their labor's worth" a guy paving roads never thinks he's going to "make it" paving roads, that's why he buys a lottery ticket so how the equals the roads works manager "taking a premium on the excess labor." i have no idea?
"That's the upper eschelons of Ubisoft and Activision-Blizzard management rn, for context." Really? the "upper echelons" as you put it are investors and they have put money in and expect a profit. Management is NOT upper echelons.

"in which you're telling me straight-faced that the unregulated free market is totally fair and inviolate" quote me please?

It's impossible to compare what patreon devs are doing on here, that is attempting to meet the unmet needs/fetishes of players in order to make money, with what large businesses are doing.
....and yet it was YOU who brought up AAA companies, large business, loot boxes and the injustices in the market place and social arenas.... go figure:unsure:
 

Ophanim

Member
May 2, 2018
197
412
Am I high? nope but maybe you are? I never said anything about consumers, I said in context with your replies on porn game players, that they could not be exploited. Exaggerating and taking it from a small base to consumers (everyone) is an insane leap. Calling people lazy, when they have every opportunity to research and gain all needed information before making a choice is not a "enormously presumptuous blanket statement" but a statement of fact.

"that the coke blaks of the world just... sink to the bottom without a trace? I would say that sometimes they do, and sometimes everyone copies that bad idea because with enough lies it does still turn a profit." Now you are creating a reality that does not exist. Coke blak failed, there were no lie that caused copies that turned a profit. You are welcome to "what if" all you like, it still won't change fact or reality that it did NOT happen.

"And speaking of doing some research, you have to be incredibly, willfully blind to think markets, and demographics, cannot be swayed through application of money, weapons and influence." I will say it again...NO ONE is holding a gun to a players head to support a porn game or a dev of a porn game.



I did read that link you posted and noticed it opened with a nice exaggeration "Game studios are now purposefully designing bad systems and mechanics" if they are going to report the "truth" then how about starting with the whole truth and not an exaggeration to make the problem seem worse than it is??? Do SOME studios do this? yes Do ALL studios do this? NO! but hey why let a little thing like truth stand in the way right?
" Microtransactions are a popular monetization model in tech: apps, games and online services are marketed as “free”, but once you start using the product, you must make small, in-app purchases to access more content. " Let's use the blanket term "free" and add must pay.... :rolleyes: First that statement is incorrect as there are MANY services and games that are free and you never have to pay to get content.... second people must make small in-app purchases for content? No, not at all, they could just go without that content....they want the content they DON'T need the content.... it's their choice and they also have the option of uninstall said app / service / game.
You and sites like that make it sound like people are being forced against their will to do these things. The moment people bring up the FACT that people are free to choose all of a sudden addiction and the like get brought up as if every person is secretly an addict. You were the one to bring up AAA studios and loot boxes and make comparisons we were just pointing out the flaws in that.



Not sure what your point is here? "propagate the idea that anyone can make it" and anyone can! As you stated they say ANYONE as in person. They do not "propagate" that everyone can make it.
So I'll break it down for you.... they are saying they made it so some one else can make it, NOT they made it so everyone everywhere can make it....



Again your statement is wrong, "put in more than their labor's worth" a guy paving roads never thinks he's going to "make it" paving roads, that's why he buys a lottery ticket so how the equals the roads works manager "taking a premium on the excess labor." i have no idea?
"That's the upper eschelons of Ubisoft and Activision-Blizzard management rn, for context." Really? the "upper echelons" as you put it are investors and they have put money in and expect a profit. Management is NOT upper echelons.

"in which you're telling me straight-faced that the unregulated free market is totally fair and inviolate" quote me please?



....and yet it was YOU who brought up AAA companies, large business, loot boxes and the injustices in the market place and social arenas.... go figure:unsure:
Okay, let me stop you right there. You seem to have a severe problem with understanding analogy, and are treating this as an argument to be 'won', rather than a conversation. When I took your mention of coke blak and used it as an analogy for bad ideas not always failing the way you claimed they did, you seemed confused by this and took it literally. Basically, this is me using sock puppets to try to get my point across to you, and you saying 'Hah, socks don't have anything to do with the economy! Checkmate!' as if that's some incredible own. As for porn gamers vs consumers... sure? Like, they are consumers, but... sure. I wasn't sure that was the position you were taking, but okay, I'll take that premise. In fact, I repeatedly said that they weren't exactly equivalent, and laid out why and in what ways, but you apparently understood that to mean I was wrong to equate them at all?

Wait, so... admitting the issues with my analogy and trying to account for them is weakness to you? That's a red flag :O

Let me try again. Large business bad. Indie dev not bad. Indie dev may copy large business bad. Indie dev not bad for doing so. OP should not mad at indie dev. System at fault.

Regarding quoting you, you seem to be arguing that if players stopped supporting games with features they dislike, those features would not exist, which is basically an argument for the invisible hand of the free market. You're arguing that everyone has highly individualistic attitudes and can choose to stop whenever they want, and that addictions are an 'excuse' as you put it for people to do what they want over what they need. Which is just such an awful take that contradicts literally over a decade of research on the psychology of addiction, and overall just incredibly callous and lacking in empathy besides. I doubt you even looked at the article I linked, did you?

You clearly never intended to argue in good faith, so I don't really see much point in continuing this.
 
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morphnet

Active Member
Aug 3, 2017
640
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Okay, let me stop you right there. You seem to have a severe problem with understanding analogy, and are treating this as an argument to be 'won', rather than a conversation. When I took your mention of coke blak and used it as an analogy for bad ideas not always failing the way you claimed they did, you seemed confused by this and took it literally. Basically, this is me using sock puppets to try to get my point across to you, and you saying 'Hah, socks don't have anything to do with the economy! Checkmate!' as if that's some incredible own. As for porn gamers vs consumers... sure? Like, they are consumers, but... sure. I wasn't sure that was the position you were taking, but okay, I'll take that premise. In fact, I repeatedly said that they weren't exactly equivalent, and laid out why and in what ways, but you apparently understood that to mean I was wrong to equate them at all?
The BIG difference here is you used coke blak in a tailored analogy to try prove your point, I used it in a factual example of "if a product looses support the product fails." I gave an example of fact, you countered with "what if" and now you are talking about socks...
In terms of the ON-TOPIC discussion, players in this instance are donors and labeling them as consumers clouds the point.

Wait, so... admitting the issues with my analogy and trying to account for them is weakness to you? That's a red flag :O
I can't even begin to guess where you got that from....

Let me try again. Large business bad. Indie dev not bad. Indie dev may copy large business bad. Indie dev not bad for doing so. OP should not mad at indie dev. System at fault.
Let me try again, Large business NOTHING to do with discussion, SOME indie dev treat supporters badly, saying MAJORITY of dev's do is BAD, you bringing unrelated soap box is BAD!

Regarding quoting you, you seem to be arguing that if players stopped supporting games with features they dislike, those features would not exist, which is basically an argument for the invisible hand of the free market.
Who said anything about features, you keep putting words in my posts that don't exist. I am saying clearly that if a product stops receiving support, said product will fail plain and simple. I am saying clearly that the products you used as example are still being supported and therefor have not failed. I also gave one actual example as proof.

You're arguing that everyone has highly individualistic attitudes and can choose to stop whenever they want, and that addictions are an 'excuse' as you put it for people to do what they want over what they need. Which is just such an awful take that contradicts literally over a decade of research on the psychology of addiction, and overall just incredibly callous and lacking in empathy besides.
Now I'm not sure if you are misreading purposefully or not. I'm saying clearly that people have a choice when it comes to making purchases in-game / in-app / in-service and when this is pointed out OTHER people bring up addiction and claim it affects everyone OR that people are being tricked into making those purchases.
I am saying a small group of people suffer from addiction and that DOES NOT account for the millions of other people still purchasing in games / apps / services.

I doubt you even looked at the article I linked, did you?
If I didn't look at it how was I able to quote the beginning and point out the flaws in it for you? Are you sure you are even fully reading my replies???

You clearly never intended to argue in good faith, so I don't really see much point in continuing this.
So I point out you contradicting yourself and that somehow equals me not "arguing" in good faith???
Almost all your replies here bring up big business and then you say " It's impossible to compare big business with patreon dev's ", patreon dev's being the literal topic of this discussion :rolleyes:

The FACT is OP's header for the thread and exaggerations in the OP itself are unfair to many dev's and your soap box stance on spreadsheets, lootboxes, the privileged few making money of the lower class backs has nothing to do with the actual topic.

In your own words...

unlike 'patreon milking' which I'm unconvinced is even a thing.
which is about the closest thing you posted to being on-topic.... so try starting again from there, loose the soap box and I'm sure the discussion will go alot more smoothly.
 
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Geralt_of_Trivia

Active Member
Jan 27, 2019
820
2,137
The huge majority of people who whine about "milker devs" have never actually paid for any game they've played. The sole reason they get mad is because they want their games, and if they don't get them quickly enough, they can't help but throw a fit over it.
supported 7 different devs here for atleast year each, 6 updates on 8 games and i use that term loosely for some of these asshats
 

Jaike

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
1,387
4,694
His statement has yet to be proved. Seems like the kind of Pov that is intuitive but hard to prove.
Exactly, this type of "debate" has an unfortunate tendency to degenerate into the various sides pushing their affective statements as facts. The OP opens with many errors of fact and there have been enough sensible responses to it, but that doesn't excuse reacting in kind when you pretty much already have truth on your side.
 

Wankyudo

Member
Jul 26, 2017
168
479
OP is right. I don't know why game devs talk about how hard it is to make a video game; and meanwhile all of yall just milk, milk milk. You know what? My turn, I'm going to make a game too and straight milk the shit out of people.

Got it all figured out. I'll spend like...two hours to make a triple AAA quality porn game that will cost me next to nothing because everyone knows game development doesn't cost a dime, post a thread on it, open a patreon; and I'll make millions in the span of a year. Because that's how it works

and definitely doesn't work like you spend somewhere around two years with eight hour days staring at spaghetti code wondering why is my game continuously crashing to desktop on launch and oh are you fucking kidding me, it's because i forgot a semicolon on line 526954, and then eventually getting to the point where you earn enough on patreon to afford half a peanut butter and jelly sandwich with two bites already taken out of it.
 

Bevnkev

New Member
Aug 18, 2022
14
6
OP is right. I don't know why game devs talk about how hard it is to make a video game; and meanwhile all of yall just milk, milk milk. You know what? My turn, I'm going to make a game too and straight milk the shit out of people.

Got it all figured out. I'll spend like...two hours to make a triple AAA quality porn game that will cost me next to nothing because everyone knows game development doesn't cost a dime, post a thread on it, open a patreon; and I'll make millions in the span of a year. Because that's how it works

and definitely doesn't work like you spend somewhere around two years with eight hour days staring at spaghetti code wondering why is my game continuously crashing to desktop on launch and oh are you fucking kidding me, it's because i forgot a semicolon on line 526954, and then eventually getting to the point where you earn enough on patreon to afford half a peanut butter and jelly sandwich with two bites already taken out of it.
mmmm - peanut butter and jelly

(we are talking real peanut butter and jelly - that's not some sort of sexual fluid euphemism I've just signed up to ?)
 

Staimh

Active Member
Dec 12, 2020
895
3,415
All successful business models end up with rip off artists
All successful business models end up with plagiarists
All successful business models end up with freeloading pirates
But all successful business models start with ideas, innovations and (usually) hard work

There are over 12,000 games on this site and I have found many games I have enjoyed for free
There are a lot of threads highlighting problems (perceived and/or real) of different developers
But I remember very few highlighting good games by good developers

So I'm just going to put a link to a reply from a developer who I think deserves some plaudits
Warlock and Boobs [v0.359.0.2] [boobsgames]

You could check my signature for the names of a few of the other games I think are very good
(Although I accept the fetishes might not conform to many peoples' taste)
 
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