• To improve security, we will soon start forcing password resets for any account that uses a weak password on the next login. If you have a weak password or a defunct email, please update it now to prevent future disruption.

Why I feel Devs should always have a walkthough made.

bas

retired
Respected User
Donor
Former Staff
May 6, 2017
3,987
30,368
It's really sad what has become of our education system. When I went to school, the goal was to teach students how to learn, so they could teach themselves, but not anymore. Now they teach kids to memorize answers so they do good on tests that make the school look good, but the kids don't learn anything. We also learned to be a little competitive, you needed a 4.3 GPA to be the best in your class. Today they give awards for 17th place, because every special snowflake is precious.

Unfortunately, I have to agree with OP. A lot of young people today can't tie their own shoes without mommy's help. Expecting them to figure out a game without step-by-step instructions is asking too much of them, given their lack of proper education.

Too embarrassed to ask mommy to help them with an incest game, they really need a guide or walkthrough. Unless they can overcome that fear, who knows maybe mommy would enjoy playing too.

In some older flash games we had hints pop up if the player was stuck. If the player sat in one spot for 120 seconds, the path would light up.
You're taking a problem about player laziness and those who only play fap games for the H scenes and making it about a generational failing of both youth and education.

Please stand back; your razor-thin connection is stretched so tight that when it snaps, it will take an eye out.
 

GuyFreely

Active Member
May 2, 2018
663
2,119
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Game
noun
noun: game; plural noun: games
a form of play or sport, especially a competitive one played according to rules and decided by skill, strength, or luck.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It wouldn't be a "game" if it didn't challenge the user.

What if there's an easy path, for those with disabilities, and a hard route for everyone else, so every player can "win".
View attachment 175723

Extra treasures, and rewards IF you complete the challenges, but you at least get a hand-job just for playing the game.
rtd.gif
Difficulty settings and hint systems are things that a dev can do to make a game more enjoyable for people not looking for a challenge. I don't have a problem with games that use them, but I still wouldn't say a dev has to do it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nottravis

polywog

Forum Fanatic
May 19, 2017
4,062
6,266
You're taking a problem about player laziness and those who only play fap games for the H scenes and making it about a generational failing of both youth and education.

Please stand back; your razor-thin connection is stretched so tight that when it snaps, it will take an eye out.
In a post a year ago I talked about different types of players... those who want an easy fap, and then there are the catholic players who like the grind, punishing themselves for their sins. If "Games" are too challenging for a user, they can search for "visual novels"

Remember, "It's just a game" play, enjoy. It's not a test. There are no right or wrong choices, with real life consequences. Play it again, and again. Try different things.

I'm not against walkthroughs, I dislike grindy games, but I respect freedom of religion, and those who play them.

Difficulty settings and hint systems are things that a dev can do to make a game more enjoyable
Devs could also let you choose you characters at the beginning. Who wants to play a game where all the girls are blondes? Give the player choices. Let them decide their mom's hair color.
 

GuyFreely

Active Member
May 2, 2018
663
2,119
Devs could also let you choose you characters at the beginning. Who wants to play a game where all the girls are blondes? Give the player choices. Let them decide their mom's hair color.
Depends on the style of game. If it's a flat art style done in layers, you can give the player more choices. If you are using 3D models, having to do multiple renders is a pain.
 
  • Like
Reactions: anne O'nymous

polywog

Forum Fanatic
May 19, 2017
4,062
6,266
The number of real-time rendered games on here is exceedingly few, but sure.
There should be more 3D games on here. come on devs, it's current year, making still-image storybook games went out in the 90s.

ScreenShot13.jpg
 

Nottravis

Sci-fi Smutress
Donor
Game Developer
Jun 3, 2017
5,132
27,264
I'm going to stick my head above the parapet on this one. As someone who is about to release their first game I'm going to be adamant and say I'd never make a walk through for it. Ever.

The reasons are many fold but, as many of here have already said - and my main reason - it's a game and therefore is there to be played. If you just want to look at images then rip away if you wish, but frankly if you do you're missing out on the whole point of it. If I've taken the time to craft a (hopefully!) engaging story for you to enjoy why on earth would I then lay out exactly how to get from A to B? Not only does it defeat the whole point of building the suspense and setting the challenges it also destroys the entire story and plot.

And as Avaron1974 and others have said, there is the also the time factor. I'd much rather be spending my time making more renders or more gameplay than writing out a walk through.

Having said all that I have to do my part as a designer in ensuring that the experience IS enjoyable and doesn't need one. A game should never be so bloody awkward that the only way to progress is to meet girl A at location B at 2pm in the afternoon, after you've given her a toy badger but before you spoke to her sister about the camel on the lawn. That's not a puzzle that's just being Kafkaesque.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Antiochus

anne O'nymous

I'm not grumpy, I'm just coded that way.
Modder
Respected User
Donor
Jun 10, 2017
10,198
14,930
There should be more 3D games on here. come on devs, it's current year, making still-image storybook games went out in the 90s.
Are you really aware of the cost, both in time and money, of such games ? Of course it's possible, there's some examples around here, but it's far to be easy and something that everyone can do.
They also are games that need a larger range of competences. (Almost) everyone can take RPG Maker/Ren'py, couple it with Honey Select or Daz3D and make a game. But if you decide to go full real time 3D, you'll need someone for the meshes/models, someone for the textures, someone for the animations, someone for the code, and someone for the story. They are too different fields of competence to be really shared in a single person.
Yet, some achieve it, but look at the effective result and the time they need between each update. , is one of these games. But if you remove the sandbox, the game is small. It still took almost two years to be achieved, and there's a bunch of meshes collisions and weird effect during some animations. is, in a way, worse, since the dev use his own engine. There's no problem with the meshes (or I've never seen them), but the animations are, well, what they are, and the models a little childish because of the small number of nodes. There's also the games made by mysterful... In term of Quality Vs Quantity, they probably are what's the best coming form a single dev. But the price was one update every now and then, games never finished and some, "er... well, ok", not only related to the models and stories. You can also find games more good looking and ambitious, like by example, but there's a whole team behind the game and still slow updates.
If a AAA studio need at least two years to release a game, while having hundreds of guys working on them at full time, imagine how many time is needed to make only 1% of this for a team of 10 guys who need to have a side job because they still need to eat. Once you've understand that, you also understand why this kind of games are an exception.
 

W65

Active Member
May 31, 2018
779
842
Hell, if a dev goes through the trouble of making a walkthrough, they have to right to SELL that shit to their players. If the players don't want to pay, they can wait for some other fan to make one--or for some fan to buy one and then put it up on a site like this one for everyone who wants it.

Of course, that's what Prima Games more or less did, and they just shut down recently. But for a game that doesn't have a million players, I imagine a dev could get five or ten folks to pay for a walkthrough. At a buck apiece, that's lunch for a day.

Given that most modern porn games are developed on the Patreon model, though, that would be kind of a lot of time for the dev to put into keeping the thing up-to-date... unless we're talking about the simpler VNs. It wouldn't surprise me if there was some software out there already to automatically interpret Renpy or other popular VN formats as flowcharts. I'm sure there are some that are complicated enough that you couldn't really chart them correctly--sorta like what the not-at-all-a-VN Free Cities did to Twine, only not THAT complicated.

Some devs devote a lot of time to answering player questions directly, though. Look at the HHS+ devs: both of the main guys are on their forums answering questions pretty often. I think they're doing it more to catch bugs than anything else, being the devs and all. Pretty often it's the same few questions, though. Having a FAQ to release with major versions would at least cut down on some of that.

Anyhow, having said all that, it's ultimately up to the dev how much work they want to do to help folks actually play their game. It's more or less a design philosophy decision coupled with a judgment of how many people will abandon the game during development if they can't actually play it. A person would think that latter number would be pretty low, but for a sufficiently complicated game I can imagine it might be a real issue.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nottravis

khumak

Engaged Member
Oct 2, 2017
3,529
3,566
IMO if a game NEEDS a walkthrough then it's a failure on the part of the developer. There should be enough context given IN GAME to make the decisions that lead to the outcome you want without a walkthrough. That doesn't mean it can't be challenging, just that it shouldn't require knowledge that can't be gained in game to make the right decisions.

When I'm playing a game I want to get drawn into the story and make choices that make sense for the type of playthrough I have in mind. I don't want to have to constantly refer to a walkthrough to verify that decision A gives me a +1 towards the goal I want while decision B gives me a -1. The outcome for these choices should be implied within the game so a walkthrough is not needed. If I'm forced to pick randomly then picking the wrong choice should be fixable without a reload.
 

Zippity

Well-Known Member
Respected User
Nov 16, 2017
1,393
2,661
so I just wanted to post how important I felt it is that every developer should have a walkthrough for their games, not only for the benefit of the player, but also for the developer themselves. I personally come from a background of computer science major and I've been studying programming since high school. I understand that many of these developers for these games do not have a large background in programming and many are learning as they go along, which I find is great, but the problem is that they're lacking the most basic thing that is drilled into us when we study programming.

what they lack would be planning. the first thing I've ever learned when learning programming in my early days is the importance of planning and writing up pseudo code before even touching the computer. so for those of you who dont know what pseudo code is, it is when you write out your code in plain English or whatever language you use, in such a way that it explains what you will be doing. this way you can take the same plan and apply it to any coding language you choose by simply replacing the simple steps into syntax. for example, you have a chunk of code where it is an if statement of some sort, or a branching path, in one section you would write out what conditions you need for each path in normal words. and then write out what would happen.

now the reason why I bring this up is because many of the excuses I've seen the devs give out as to why they dont have a walkthrough is because it would take too much time to write out all the different choices and what could happen and the different paths. well my response is, you should have had it written out to begin with because it would be your planned out pseudo code. with it, it should have had all the branching paths and what conditions were required to be met in order to gain any flags or any values for future sets.

also by creating these walkthroughs or pseudo codes, it really helps the developers to keep track of the player's states. of what information they may have had, what flags they have set, and what values they have obtained. many times i've seen games have continuity issues where the MC would do a certain action and then another scene shows conflicting information. with these walkthroughs you'd be able to help yourself keep track of what you have to work with and what the MC's states are in order to figure out what you can write about or how to make the story flow, especially if you are making a game with large amount of branching paths.

now I also hear how some developers say they dont want the player to have a walkthrough because they just want the player to experience the game how ever they wish to play it. and to that I just say that is absolutely wrong. a player is the one that should get the choice of how they wish to play it. the walkthrough shouldn't be a document that tells the player what to do step for step, at least not a good walkthrough. instead the walkthrough is supposed to explain the choices each action has made. also it is the player's choice if they wish to use the walkthrough or not. another reason for why I feel the walkthrough should be the player's choice to use is because there are people who like to see all the different path ways and all the different choices a user can make, but they may not have the time to go through to test all the different permutations of choices. every time you add a choice to the game, the amount of permutations grow exponentially. for example a game with 10 event choices with 2 choices each in it, would have 1,024 different permutations meaning if a player wanted to be sure they saw every event and every situation, they would have to play through that many times. even though many of them wouldn't make a difference but the player wouldnt know that.

also some people may say "well just save before each choice and then return and try the different path to see how it is different" well many games I've known of wouldnt work like this. the choice dosnt effect events until later on. so even though you can see the immediate difference of doing this, you wouldnt know what would happen down the line.

with some games, you might see certain stats or values after you've made a choice, and some may say that you should just choose which ever gives the most improvement. but then again this may not always be the right choice. I've seen many games that have made it such that you have to get a negative hit in order to get a pay off much further down the road.

so I urge developers to take a second thought and please always think about creating a walkthrough for you games, you put so much effort into making it, why not also create a document to simply guide players to see all of it's content when the player wants to see it.

TL:DR summary
1. should be made since it would be the planning/pseudo code for your game
2. it should be up to the player's choice on how they wish to play the game, either it be them making their own choices, or to be told how to see the most in the shortest amount of time.
3. to help reduce the amount of permutations a player would have to see in order to make sure they see all the content they wish to see.
4. to help the developer keep track of what state the MC is in.
In the past, and mostly in present day, you typically saw walk through's made by fans and/or 3rd parties... Game designers want you to play their games in some normal fashion, as intended... The same applies to this niche market... What would be the point of the developer putting all the time and effort into a Visual Novel and/or Game, with all it's complexity, if they then purposefully included a walk through for you to skip all the nuances of their VN/Game? That makes no sense... The developer might as well just create a series of pictures/animations, with no story or game play mechanics and upload them for you see at that point...

The point is, developers should not be expected to create cheats and walk through documentation for their own creations... If someone wants to skip through the VN/Game, then either look for one made by someone else or make one themselves for others to use...

Now all that being said... There are on some small occasions where, due to possibly some bad development choices, a VN/Game might not be very forthcoming with subtle or not-so-subtle hints on what step is needed next in a navigation/action style game, or grind based visual novel (etc), to get the next step/s... So you end up spending hours in repeating loops of content, with no idea what to do next... This may be due to poor story telling, and/or poor game design... Or perhaps it was completely intended for the player to check every nook and cranny, clicking every possible item in varying combinations, prior to getting the story/game to move forward.. If that is the case, it's either poor VN/Game design or just a sadistic developer... In any case, for those types of situations, either cheats or a walk through may feel 100% necessary in order to get the ball rolling, rather then spending hours experiencing repeating content with nothing new... But, that is just poor design, and it still should not be a requirement for the developer to create a walk through, or design cheats, for the readers/players to get past those humps due to poor design choices... Instead, I would hope in those cases, that the developer would just fix the issues... Otherwise I would just stop reading/playing all together, or seek out someone who was good enough to create those items for you...

Typically, when you do see a few developers add in cheat codes and/or create walk through documents for their works... It's more so for enticing higher donations from patrons, then offering up easy play for all their fans... It's usually just a money gimmick... And not something a majority of developers offer...

Zip