Should Devs Hate F95?

What should Devs do to sell & protect thier games?

  • Add mild DRM

    Votes: 17 5.2%
  • Add signigficant DRM

    Votes: 11 3.4%
  • Add passwords to unlock premium version

    Votes: 35 10.8%
  • Ignore the issue / just make better games

    Votes: 274 84.6%
  • Other (comment below)

    Votes: 23 7.1%

  • Total voters
    324

DelinquentProductions

Degenerate
Game Developer
Oct 24, 2020
134
885
I can understand some people's frustration with putting a ton of work into something and it not being profitable at all. That sucks and no matter how satisfied you are creatively, satisfaction doesn't pay your rent.

No matter what you make on the internet people will get it for free, it's an unavoidable cost of the connectivity. It's just something that developers need to consider and adapt to, because the adult games market wouldn't be what it is without places like this.
 

baka

Engaged Member
Modder
Oct 13, 2016
3,417
7,131
I have been around for a decade and more, creating tools and now games, with 0$ income so far.
sure I would like more support, this so that we can pay the artists without lagging.
but, I don't believe in trying to lock/protect the game. instead I would like that people would be more motivated to help out, but also more active, so they give support to the dev that is working hard and leave the dev that is slacking/milking/not working at all. as lots of money, every month goes to "0 productivity" while new devs struggle to just get a little support for their efforts.

f95 is a great place to talk and discuss and show what u got.
devs should be thankful, as most devs started with nothing and without f95 they would struggle to get started as here they can immediately (for free) release their games.
even if they later have lots of support and they don't need f95 anymore, they should still feel grateful that f95 exists.
 

AetherL

Newbie
May 3, 2021
16
8
I chose the other answer so I put my comment.

Developers who are not happy just have to accept reality.
There is no way with current knowledge to prevent their game from being hacked.
If you can find one you are already a millionaire. You just have to sell your invention to all the game development companies (and some others companies).

Hacking is the same for everyone, at best you can slow down the hackers but that's it.

Behind that dev should perhaps be wondering how they got to have so many people paying for their game. Obviously there are some who do not go through pirate sites to find out about the games. But I think that for a good majority it is. Quite simply because the catalogs of this kind of game cannot be found everywhere.

F95 is not responsible for your game being hacked. They simply centralize all the hacks that exist. If f95 disappears, hackers will continue but simply share by other means. Except that at the same time the visibility of your game will drastically decrease.

The worst being some of this developers came to do this "job" because they went through sites like f95 when they were interested in this kind of game.
Would they have been adult game developers if it hadn't been for f95? Difficult to say but we can ask the question.
 

Pretentious Goblin

Conversation Conqueror
Nov 3, 2017
7,921
6,697
The games/devs I support, I found on F95. I might not have been aware of crowdfunded western ero-games without F95. I would not know where to search for these games without F95, and if they were exclusively paid content I probably wouldn't be interested in them as a whole. It has its place on the landscape, and devs can always offer perks/earlier releases through Patreon by managing their games' presence on F95 personally.
 
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Tor7

Member
Jun 10, 2021
214
234
After reading the first 2 pages of this thread.... I was curious, as someone who is thinking about creating VNs is there anyway to give subscribers or paying customers extra bonus material or cheats that wouldn't get pirated? Or is there no such thing?

It seems even if you try to give subscribers early access, that the game can be leaked as soon as 8 hours after the game was released on Patreon. I know some creators have a time delay between each of their tiers before they release it publicly. Is that also futile?
 

Whale_Shark

Talking Shark. Developer of Confidence Man
Game Developer
Sep 12, 2020
249
678
Speaking as a new developer, without F95 and other pirate sites like it, NO ONE would know about my game. Maybe if you're a huge dev with 20,000 patrons, piracy might irk you, but everyone has to start somewhere. For us little guys, this site is free, direct marketing straight to your target audience.
 
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Apr 24, 2020
192
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After reading the first 2 pages of this thread.... I was curious, as someone who is thinking about creating VNs is there anyway to give subscribers or paying customers extra bonus material or cheats that wouldn't get pirated? Or is there no such thing?
Not really.

It seems even if you try to give subscribers early access, that the game can be leaked as soon as 8 hours after the game was released on Patreon.
In my experience it seems like supporters respect the silent agreement that they get early access and the later versions become free. Maybe that was simply because the game wasn't in high enough demand or the supporters were just feeling nice and not leaking the game.
Generally though there's a limit to how much effort you want to go into in order to release a pirated version of the game.

There's also the possibility of sharing other stuff than just the game itself as well as polling your supporters on which areas to focus on for the next update. Just be wary about turning the game into design by committee as supporters often seem to have short term gratification in mind rather than what's good for the story in long run.
 

anne O'nymous

I'm not grumpy, I'm just coded that way.
Modder
Respected User
Donor
Jun 10, 2017
10,262
15,061
[...] is there anyway to give subscribers or paying customers extra bonus material or cheats that wouldn't get pirated?
The higher is the tiers that contain the bonus, the lower is the "risk" to see this bonus leaked.
Like InCompleteController said, it's mostly a question of relation between the patrons and the author. Those who pledge on the upper tiers do it not because they want the bonus(es), but mostly because they respect the author. Therefore, they'll be more likely to not leak their version.
As author you've be kind enough to pass part of your time to add content for your high tiers patrons, in exchange they'll be nice enough to not leak this version. And the same apply with early release depending of the tiers. Even if it's a high tiers patron that will leak the game, he'll generally leak the bonus(es) free version and wait for it to be released for the lower tiers before doing it.
Obviously, this isn't a rule, but it's what happen most of the time. Look at the threads, there's some that are updated twice. Firstly with the basic version, then one or two weeks later with the Patreon version. And I'm sure (for at least one game) that some never had their Patreon version leaked.

This being said, there's a paradox in all this. Once again like InCompleteController implied, the more your game is popular, the more there's risk for it to be leaked early and possibly with its bonuses. What mean that, having his game leaked early is a proof of success that the author should be proud of.
 

262177

Well-Known Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,554
1,253
The business model is entirely up to the developer. Patreon has never been a tip jar (except in the very early days) no matter how much it tries to brainwash people into thinking that is the case, but this isn't about Patreon (or any platform), this is about developers in general.

Should developers hate F95 for being a piracy website? It gives them free advertising just like any other pirate website. There are pros and cons, but free advertising will always beat power advertising because it doesn't require the creator to sell their heart, soul and passion to a company in addition to their rights and privileges or most of it. It's a rather large community with over 5 million accounts and at least 100k fairly active. I'd compare it to someone asking if artists should hate E-Hentai when Tenboro did the same as Sam here and added banners to support the artists. Unfortunately, those were company banners, which is why I appreciate it when F95 automates "Support Anonymous" instead of using, say, "Support Steam" or "Support Patreon". This backfired into encouraging more hypocritical DMCAs than actual advertising.

Should developers hate F95 because people are self-entitled? This doesn't just happen on F95. Go check any community. Be a greedy developer, milk your audience, destroy your own humanity and you'll grow a massive fanbase brainwashing others into doing the same if you're shameless enough to do this. And because bias is bad, there is the other end of the spectrum: cater to your audience's needs and whims, overwork yourself, don't ask for anything, do it for free, place all bets on passion and efforts... and end up completely and utterly depressed with a ruined life and no support whatsoever since depressed people usually aren't very productive and the pity card only really works for the ones who have zero empathy and do not deserve to be called human. In both cases, a large portion of the audience will be self-entitled and will go bonkers the instant the developer, artist, musician, writer, and so on fails to deliver. Large but not 100%. Minorities matter even if they are powerless. The thing is that's how most people are, not any community's fault. Companies encourage that mindset. If you are human, prove it and don't get baited into falling for it, either as a patron or as a creator ready to do anything to get attention, power and money.

There are pros and cons to all plans like Anne pointed out, but for developers who prefer to go with - I won't use that word, they're no longer one, so I'm using the actual phrasing - crowdfunding social platforms, the timegate approach works nicely if people are tolerant and patient. Patience is a virtue and it is extremely rare in 2021 due to how easy it is to get hold of just about anything in first world countries with the average lifestyle, pandemic or not. (People don't even care about the pandemic, but people have absurd priorities in 2021, or maybe they're just narcissists and selfish when many of us end up as misfits as we have failed to adapt and grow into space monkeys. It's a whole other beast, really.)

Then there's the get it for free, pay whatever you want, whenever you want if you like it approach that only works for games as far as I am aware. Itch. Name another platform that gives you an option to pick between 0%, 10% and 30% of your sales (completely free products included in the term, but the money received will be seen as income, not as a donation) and defaults to 0%. With the current trends, it's increasingly worrying to see free developers who hand out 30% to itch and developers selling for big bucks and with the setting at 0% but they've probably planned it. It's covered in their FAQ. This is the closest approach to the 70s and 80s shareware trends for the older folks out there. Free demos used to be almost entire games and were so absurdly cheap it felt bad if you were not able to support the developer (not because you are poor because 99% of the time, that's a lie - be honest, poor people won't exactly be tweeting and liveblogging on something they aren't supposed to have - but because, and there's no shame about admitting to it, you may not have access to a payment method, you may be rightfully anxious about a proper way to approach possible direct payment methods or you may just be unable to do it for any other reason that isn't "I don't want to").

And then there's what Anne mentioned. Leaks will happen, you can't prevent leaks - you can only mitigate them, usually by being fair so they don't happen. Even big tech companies can't with their supposedly unbreakable technology and security when all it takes is a massive database dump with 2 billion people to land at some point for people to notice. Don't expect anything to be safe, secure, private, and most importantly deleted. Nothing ever is deleted from the Internet itself, only removed and made extremely hard to access if it is something super sensitive - but never impossible. There is no digital sledgehammer or ion cannon in the HackNet. You can zerofill and randomize all you want, encrypt with as many layers of encryption and obfuscation, the original data was available to you. Nobody even needs to physically or psychologically torture or blackmail a content creator to get what they want: all it takes is a single misstep for a leak to happen. Mistakes are human by design, even deities make mistakes - if you believe in a deity-based cult or religion, we are the living (or dead, if only...) proof of this.

If developers don't want to end up depressed or don't want to end up joining the current paypig trends, they should be themselves, create something they love (Patreon, 2013, aged like milk) and be passionate about doing it for themselves and, by extension, for others. Work goals ("promises") are non-binding, deadlines don't exist. Don't give deadlines if you can't meet them. You don't have to meet them. Don't blog with your audience about your real life (unless it genuinely affected your work, then all you need if your intent was to build a platform for your work, nobody cares except for "simps" and sharing private, sensitive, personal information is a very bad idea no matter how much attention and money you get from it. Use the platform to give progress reports when you can. If you do it right, that will be often, and you will be providing information that is entirely related to what you are making. If people don't care, then they didn't come here for your work. It's that simple.

Stick to a regular schedule, don't work on 100 things when you can hardly focus on one and be glad you have a real tip jar at hand somewhere should someone want to throw a buck or two every now and then. If you are working on something big that requires investment, then keep in mind the platform is only here to act as a legal middleman and advertising. Advertisement can backfire and proxy lawsuits are rather overrated unless your work is highly contentious (but if it is, the platform won't allow it in the first place, so it's a non-issue). Kickstarters using double-standard payment processors can destroy you, don't fall for it. Real and honest developers rarely make a profit but if they value their humanity and working on their beloved project (or projects, if properly planned) didn't destroy their health or sanity (or both), then breaking even is more than enough.

tldr: Piracy happens to everyone. Deal with it.
Since you're most likely doing it too, don't judge others when it happens to you, nobody is special.
 
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Tor7

Member
Jun 10, 2021
214
234
There's also the possibility of sharing other stuff than just the game itself as well as polling your supporters on which areas to focus on for the next update. Just be wary about turning the game into design by committee as supporters often seem to have short term gratification in mind rather than what's good for the story in long run.
Yeah, saw that in one game... don't recall which one, but some blue haired lady, I guess had a normal name, then a supporter paid enough to rename her to something like Bluey McBluehair or something along those lines. I thought the name was horrible and broke immersion, but it was a minor character and moved on from there. Later I learned that she was renamed and why.

Obviously, this isn't a rule, but it's what happen most of the time. Look at the threads, there's some that are updated twice. Firstly with the basic version, then one or two weeks later with the Patreon version.
That's interesting... releasing a basic version for free, while releasing a bonus scene version to the tiers, might be an idea.

Thank you for your responses. I've certainly enjoyed the content on this site and if I ever actually release a VN, I do plan to post it here as well.
 

Droid Productions

[Love of Magic]
Donor
Game Developer
Dec 30, 2017
6,645
16,829
In theory you could use the Patreon's Oauth system to validate existing patreons only, then build a bunch of functionality (downloading content that's never written to disk, saving games, some key logic chunks) around a valid server-side authentication.

In practice it's a lot of anti-consumer bullshit. The end result is an inferior product that will piss off your supporters. While it might squeeze any players you *have* for more cash, it's unlikely to get you more supporters. I'd much rather collect $5 from 500 players than $50 from 50 players.
 
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lemonfreak

The Freakiest of Lemons
Oct 24, 2018
5,334
9,969
After reading the first 2 pages of this thread.... I was curious, as someone who is thinking about creating VNs is there anyway to give subscribers or paying customers extra bonus material or cheats that wouldn't get pirated? Or is there no such thing?
Put it behind a $10,000 tier?
It seems even if you try to give subscribers early access, that the game can be leaked as soon as 8 hours after the game was released on Patreon. I know some creators have a time delay between each of their tiers before they release it publicly. Is that also futile?
It's the cost of popularity unfortunately. Devs with 50 patrons tend not to have their games leak, those with 5000 do. There are a few who manage to maintain good relationships with their patrons, eg. Ranlilabz and Davie Zwei where they don't seem to leak very often but these are very much the exception.

Ultimately I think you just have to make peace with it (or aceept it as karma for all the games you've pirated from here, lol)
 
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Avaron1974

Resident Lesbian
Aug 22, 2018
25,028
85,619
I find the games I play on this site, without it I wouldn't be playing those games.

The old "every copy pirated is a sale lost" was disproven years ago and many times over since. The simple fact is I only play a lot of the games I play on here because I got them free, there's no chance in hell i'd ever pay money for most of them.

There are a few, like Love of Magic, Daughter of Essence, Last Sovereign (it's free but has the option to donate) and a few other VN's and RPG's, mainly RPG's though, that I bought through Steam or Itch.

I don't mind a lump sum payment for either a finished game or one I know will get finished but I refuse to pay a subscription for something that may or may not be.
 
Apr 24, 2020
192
257
That's interesting... releasing a basic version for free, while releasing a bonus scene version to the tiers, might be an idea.
I would say this is the best way to ensure that your game does get pirated, because if there's one thing that pirates want it's having access to the full game.
What's going to happen is that as your game gets updated more and more those extra scenes start to add up and it's going to feel like your free version of the game is missing a DLC expansion.

The problem is also how you're going to separate the free and the paid version, because there's really just two options.

One, have two different versions of the game. This will get really annoying to maintain since you basically have do everything twice in order to keep the versions separate.

Two, have the game contain a fresh password with each version to unlock the paid content. This is going to be very easy to leak, since either the password, the function or just the bool value for which version it is can be found in your code. Not to mention how low the barrier for piracy is, since all that's required is to post a password.
 
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Tor7

Member
Jun 10, 2021
214
234
I would say this is the best way to ensure that your game does get pirated, because if there's one thing that pirates want it's having access to the full game.
What's going to happen is that as your game gets updated more and more those extra scenes start to add up and it's going to feel like your free version of the game is missing a DLC expansion.

The problem is also how you're going to separate the free and the paid version, because there's really just two options.

One, have two different versions of the game. This will get really annoying to maintain since you basically have do everything twice in order to keep the versions separate.

Two, have the game contain a fresh password with each version to unlock the paid content. This is going to be very easy to leak, since either the password, the function or just the bool value for which version it is can be found in your code. Not to mention how low the barrier for piracy is, since all that's required is to post a password.
You're right. I didn't think of that. And I am a huge fan of not making work more annoying or cumbersome.

Shrugs. deep sigh. lol smh. I guess the best thing to do is just have a good relationship with my subscribers, release it via tier system, and if it gets leaked prior to the planned public release, it gets leaked.

I definitely appreciate all the feedback I've gotten.