VN Ren'Py Naked Ambition [v0.82] [Apollo Seven]

[Apollo Seven]

Here's some advice. Take a break and time away. It's better you take a break and come back with a solid plan.

The game already had a year long hiatus already. How much more time away could it take?

Maybe you can crowdsource some ideas. Most of the people in this thread are familiar with the game and could offer ideas (broad strokes, of course).

Anyway, in my experience it is better to go with bad idea than stop. Once you have something concrete, you can much more easily see what you can improve.

Don't go Martin on us

Ideas aren't the problem. I know what happens in the end game crisis and endings and such. The problem is executing them.

 

[Mfka5]

The game already had a year long hiatus already. How much more time away could it take?


Ideas aren't the problem. I know what happens in the end game crisis and endings and such. The problem is executing them.

So what exactly is the problem?
You arent skilled enough and commited to the challenge or would rather go do something else?
I can already tell since you develop 3 games you arent easily commited to just 1 game arent you

 

[Apollo Seven]

So what exactly is the problem?
You arent skilled enough and commited to the challenge or would rather go do something else?
I can already tell since you develop 3 games you arent easily commited to just 1 game arent you

I described the problem in the first post I made earlier. I've been working on it but nothing I've made has met my standards of what I'd actually release as an update.
And hell no I'm not committed to one game, lol. I've released 13 games under this label and all of them have been finished except this one.

 

[Dom1anon]

Another dev update. Work on the update is going really badly. This is kind of a first for me where I make an effort towards something and I just can't use it because it's hot garbage. I can't get back in the zone of the writing and the art production has had two finished pieces made in months of artist collaboration.

So... I don't know. I might just have to put the game on hiatus again? But I don't see why writing it would go any better in the future. I could force out a bad update I guess just to have one. I'm sorry guys I'm kind of at a loss here with what to do. The game and the players deserve updates a finished game, but that can't just come from thin air, I have to actually make it.

Talk to somebody you trust who understands the problem and game about it.
And I mean really talk about it, don't just go for an explanation of the problem followed up by a "wow that sucks man." Explain the issue, what's stopping you and what you think may or may not help, spitball until your mind's clearer.
Go through some of the work (even the shitty stuff), say what bothers you and ask for input.

 

[C17H19NO3]

The game already had a year long hiatus already. How much more time away could it take?

No one:
Absolutely no one:
Duke Nukem Forever: ...

 

[postalservice]

It may be helpful to describe in more detail what's wrong with what you've produced so far. What makes it "hot garbage?" Identifying what's going wrong can help you target fixes. Are scenes not sexy enough? Is the writing clunky? Are you stuck on select scenes that aren't working when you could be working on others?

One suggestion: you say you know where the story is ending, but maybe what you've written so far doesn't actually lead logically to the ending(s) you had in your head. Maybe you need to be open to letting the story go in a different direction and deviating from the outline.

 

[lordrango]

In general, if you have a clear idea what is supposed to happen, how the game is going to end, you've done the hard part, I would say.

What appears as "hot garbage" to you might not be received as such by everyone else.

Worst case scenario, release the final chapter as some form of "early access", collect feedback and improve the final version. I've played enough of this game to know the quality of your work and can almost assuredly say that it won't be hot garbage.

OR...

... be more specific about the issues, maybe someone here can help. Just outlining the problems might help.

 

[shadow415]

Talk to somebody you trust who understands the problem and game about it.
And I mean really talk about it, don't just go for an explanation of the problem followed up by a "wow that sucks man." Explain the issue, what's stopping you and what you think may or may not help, spitball until your mind's clearer.
Go through some of the work (even the shitty stuff), say what bothers you and ask for input.

This is probably the best thing to do. Bouncing ideas off someone and seeing how those ideas can be refined.

 

[Ronia]

I described the problem in the first post I made earlier. I've been working on it but nothing I've made has met my standards of what I'd actually release as an update.
And hell no I'm not committed to one game, lol. I've released 13 games under this label and all of them have been finished except this one.

I'm sorry to hear that. I sadly have some experience with how much it can become a hurdle when an artist starts flaking on you. Extremely hard to push through challenges when you aren't sure you will ever actually have the assets to support the work you'll have to do.

I have personally had to abandon a project at a very late stage because of much the same as what you describe. It's the combination of your own work not coming out how you want it and losing trust in the one who's creating your assets. That two-punch was too much for me and I eventually opted to let it go and carry on with the projects that I could actually finish. It did not feel good. Still doesn't. But it was the right choice at that point, since it was sapping my energy.

So yea, I have nothing constructive to add other than to let you know that I sympathize.

 

[Tanarii]

Breezing right past the obvious troll...

Sorry to hear you're having these difficulties, A7. If it helps, your work *is* appreciated. I liked TF Card Battle enough to buy The Monster Within, and still boot it up from time to time to play a few rounds. Or even the NSFW version I still have in my Games folder.

 

[Apollo Seven]

In general, if you have a clear idea what is supposed to happen, how the game is going to end, you've done the hard part, I would say.

What appears as "hot garbage" to you might not be received as such by everyone else.

Worst case scenario, release the final chapter as some form of "early access", collect feedback and improve the final version. I've played enough of this game to know the quality of your work and can almost assuredly say that it won't be hot garbage.

OR...

... be more specific about the issues, maybe someone here can help. Just outlining the problems might help.

The biggest problems specifically are writing quality and art production. This game has gone through four artists and I need to find another one after the one I hired to get the new stuff done flaked on me. Hiring NSFW pixel artists is way harder than hiring traditional character artists for reasons I won't really get into here. I actually cancelled an upcoming project because it was going to use pixel art again and I didn't want to deal with the pipeline issues.

So that's discouraging, but the biggest problem is writing. Most of you are hearing "writing issues" and thinking writers block. But that's not really what's happening. Imagine two artists, one who's a master painter and one who's just beginning. They both paint a seascape, the master painter's seascape is going to be much more visually appealing than the beginner. But why? They both knew what the were drawing and they both finished the art.

I am not happy at all with the quality of the output I've made for this game. I know a lot of people don't seem to care if the writing is any good or not, but I do. These games are a form of artistic expression for me and I don't want to release updates that don't meet my standards of writing quality. The last batch of random events were pretty crap too to be honest.

I'm sorry to hear that. I sadly have some experience with how much it can become a hurdle when an artist starts flaking on you. Extremely hard to push through challenges when you aren't sure you will ever actually have the assets to support the work you'll have to do.

I have personally had to abandon a project at a very late stage because of much the same as what you describe. It's the combination of your own work not coming out how you want it and losing trust in the one who's creating your assets. That two-punch was too much for me and I eventually opted to let it go and carry on with the projects that I could actually finish. It did not feel good. Still doesn't. But it was the right choice at that point, since it was sapping my energy.

So yea, I have nothing constructive to add other than to let you know that I sympathize.

Thanks for the sympathy. Sapping my energy is a good way to put it because working on stuff like AtMoF or Netoria Tactics is fun and engaging, and working on Naked Ambition is the opposite. Putting in time and work to make something and then not liking the outcome is not fun.

Why would the dev want to do this? Just to please selfish trolls? Intellectual property is property. One doesn't just give away property because someone wants one to.

Honestly, I did consider this option. But I don't really trust someone else to finish the game off.

 

[annoymouse]

I can get why people might think is easy to write for since it's 'just a porn game', but I 100% respect you wanting it to be the best product it could possibly be. I'm definitely disappointed in how long the game is taking to finish, but that's just because I like it that much. Keep up the good work.

 

[manscout]

I don't know if the writing troubles are with a specific part of the content or all around, but maybe it would help to re-examine what experience the game is meant to deliver?

I can only speak for myself, but considering this is similar to games like "Princess maker" and "long live the queen", I wouldn't mind the writing being focused in "quantity" over "quality". I mostly would just want the endings to reflect what I built the princess to be in that playthrough (her main mood, most developed set of skills, her relationship status, corruption, etc), if the trouble is with integrating all of that in a cohesive way with strong narrative pieces, I'd say to just give up on that and go with a more modular approach, like little vignettes just for the purpose of highlighting whatever traits of the princess.

What I'm thinking is that what remains of the story should be:
Climax event -> Election result -> Epilogue vignettes -> Final scene focused on the Princess' relationship status

The climax events are mostly already setup, iirc it was either demons, barbarians, or noble conspiracy. I don't know if the writing struggle is here, but I'd argue to not overthink it too much. I know they are the "climax", but for these types of games that are all about "tailoring" your protagonist, I don't think they need to be much more than just "the final hurdle" before the endings, which are the real payoff for these types of games (I think you kind of need to treat it as the opposite of how you did "Calibration Error", where the "ship of theseus" scene was the big focus of the narrative while the endings themselves were more "for fun")

Can't imagine the election results being a scene that would cause much struggle, just the councillors expressing their approval or disapproval of the princess and the brother reacting to it.

Like I said earlier, if you make little epilogue vignettes it should be easier to just write random scenes to feature traits of the princess, without worrying too much about how they might conflict with other elements of the story. At most just make a variation for if she won the election or if she lost (so she is either a queen or not).

Capping off the endings with the "relationship status" would make more sense since I feel the stronger narrative aspects of this game are in the specific routes and relationships, also lets you have the "money shot" of the ending with whatever final art piece for each romantic partner/route/scenario.

But ultimately this is just me sharing thoughts on how I'd like to see the ending of the game structured. If the writing block is more with having to write specific scenes or characters, I will just go back to my opinion that quantity over quality is fine here. With the replay value and sheer number of routes, even if some scenarios don't end up quite as good as you may have wanted them to be, just being able to wrap up all of it will already make it a pretty great game.

 

[lordrango]

The biggest problems specifically are writing quality and art production. This game has gone through four artists and I need to find another one after the one I hired to get the new stuff done flaked on me. Hiring NSFW pixel artists is way harder than hiring traditional character artists for reasons I won't really get into here. I actually cancelled an upcoming project because it was going to use pixel art again and I didn't want to deal with the pipeline issues.

So that's discouraging, but the biggest problem is writing. Most of you are hearing "writing issues" and thinking writers block. But that's not really what's happening. Imagine two artists, one who's a master painter and one who's just beginning. They both paint a seascape, the master painter's seascape is going to be much more visually appealing than the beginner. But why? They both knew what the were drawing and they both finished the art.

I am not happy at all with the quality of the output I've made for this game. I know a lot of people don't seem to care if the writing is any good or not, but I do. These games are a form of artistic expression for me and I don't want to release updates that don't meet my standards of writing quality. The last batch of random events were pretty crap too to be honest.

Sure, I get all that and I don't want it to seem like I'm pressuring. Speaking for myself, I know I would much prefer a closure, even at a risk of a lesser quality, than limbo.

 

[goblinraider]

Hiring NSFW pixel artists is way harder than hiring traditional character artists for reasons I won't really get into here.

I would unironically love to hear about your experiences with NSFW artists flaking.

 

[Apollo Seven]

I don't know if the writing troubles are with a specific part of the content or all around, but maybe it would help to re-examine what experience the game is meant to deliver?

I can only speak for myself, but considering this is similar to games like "Princess maker" and "long live the queen", I wouldn't mind the writing being focused in "quantity" over "quality". I mostly would just want the endings to reflect what I built the princess to be in that playthrough (her main mood, most developed set of skills, her relationship status, corruption, etc), if the trouble is with integrating all of that in a cohesive way with strong narrative pieces, I'd say to just give up on that and go with a more modular approach, like little vignettes just for the purpose of highlighting whatever traits of the princess.

What I'm thinking is that what remains of the story should be:
Climax event -> Election result -> Epilogue vignettes -> Final scene focused on the Princess' relationship status

The climax events are mostly already setup, iirc it was either demons, barbarians, or noble conspiracy. I don't know if the writing struggle is here, but I'd argue to not overthink it too much. I know they are the "climax", but for these types of games that are all about "tailoring" your protagonist, I don't think they need to be much more than just "the final hurdle" before the endings, which are the real payoff for these types of games (I think you kind of need to treat it as the opposite of how you did "Calibration Error", where the "ship of theseus" scene was the big focus of the narrative while the endings themselves were more "for fun")

Can't imagine the election results being a scene that would cause much struggle, just the councillors expressing their approval or disapproval of the princess and the brother reacting to it.

Like I said earlier, if you make little epilogue vignettes it should be easier to just write random scenes to feature traits of the princess, without worrying too much about how they might conflict with other elements of the story. At most just make a variation for if she won the election or if she lost (so she is either a queen or not).

Capping off the endings with the "relationship status" would make more sense since I feel the stronger narrative aspects of this game are in the specific routes and relationships, also lets you have the "money shot" of the ending with whatever final art piece for each romantic partner/route/scenario.

But ultimately this is just me sharing thoughts on how I'd like to see the ending of the game structured. If the writing block is more with having to write specific scenes or characters, I will just go back to my opinion that quantity over quality is fine here. With the replay value and sheer number of routes, even if some scenarios don't end up quite as good as you may have wanted them to be, just being able to wrap up all of it will already make it a pretty great game.

You're pretty much spot on as to how the endings work. The election will happen, and then it cuts to an ending which will be a little breakdown of how the Princess's life went after that. This is pretty art intensive and I have exactly 0 of it made so the endings will probably have to be made in a series of updates after the base game timeline is done.

It seems the consensus is pretty much just get something, anything done, regardless of whether it's super high quality or not. And I suppose that is pretty achievable.

I would unironically love to hear about your experiences with NSFW artists flaking.

Sure. I hire a lot of artists, every game features a different one because I want to match them to whatever my aesthetic vision of that game is. Hiring traditional character artists is pretty easy, lots of people want to make art for money and I provide them money for art. Simple, easy relationship. We both get what we want out of it.

But with NSFW pixel art, there are very few professionals. It's full of hobbyists, people who are doing it just for personal entertainment and fulfillment. Their goal isn't to make sexy pixel art for a living, they just find it enjoyable. This makes hiring them a different relationship because their incentives to work on a project end when it stops being fun. For traditional artists, if it stops being fun they still want to do the work because if they quit they're just going to have to find another thing to make art for, it's their profession. This makes NSFW pixel artists a ticking time bomb. At some point they're going to get bored with working with you and leave, why wouldn't they? They're only doing this stuff because they like it. If they stop liking it whatever money you're giving them probably isn't a big enough reason not to move on to something more fun.

Another factor is most of the really food NSFW pixel artists aren't for hire. They're making their own games. Pixel art as a genre is inherently tied to games and if you like making pixel art odds are you probably are interested in the idea of making games too. So you just make your own game instead of trying to get commissions.

The end result is hiring and keeping NSFW pixel artists on your project is a major pain. And at this point I'm basically done with it, except for Naked Ambition where I kind of have to follow through on the existing art-style.

 

[Hynkka]

You're pretty much spot on as to how the endings work. The election will happen, and then it cuts to an ending which will be a little breakdown of how the Princess's life went after that. This is pretty art intensive and I have exactly 0 of it made so the endings will probably have to be made in a series of updates after the base game timeline is done.

It seems the consensus is pretty much just get something, anything done, regardless of whether it's super high quality or not. And I suppose that is pretty achievable.


Sure. I hire a lot of artists, every game features a different one because I want to match them to whatever my aesthetic vision of that game is. Hiring traditional character artists is pretty easy, lots of people want to make art for money and I provide them money for art. Simple, easy relationship. We both get what we want out of it.

But with NSFW pixel art, there are very few professionals. It's full of hobbyists, people who are doing it just for personal entertainment and fulfillment. Their goal isn't to make sexy pixel art for a living, they just find it enjoyable. This makes hiring them a different relationship because their incentives to work on a project end when it stops being fun. For traditional artists, if it stops being fun they still want to do the work because if they quit they're just going to have to find another thing to make art for, it's their profession. This makes NSFW pixel artists a ticking time bomb. At some point they're going to get bored with working with you and leave, why wouldn't they? They're only doing this stuff because they like it. If they stop liking it whatever money you're giving them probably isn't a big enough reason not to move on to something more fun.

Another factor is most of the really food NSFW pixel artists aren't for hire. They're making their own games. Pixel art as a genre is inherently tied to games and if you like making pixel art odds are you probably are interested in the idea of making games too. So you just make your own game instead of trying to get commissions.

The end result is hiring and keeping NSFW pixel artists on your project is a major pain. And at this point I'm basically done with it, except for Naked Ambition where I kind of have to follow through on the existing art-style.

Thanks for the insight into the process. As someone who thinks good writing is the best spice for an adult game, I appreciate developers like you. So many players just want to look at the action and always whine about games being too grindy or having "pointless dialogue". It's a shame to hear about your difficulties with Naked Ambition though. I remember playing it a dozen versions ago. Reading about all this has made me want to check your other projects.

 

[silvermoon111]

Hi Apollo,

Honestly to me you sound like you have the game developer version of "stage fright." You've been working on this game for years (it's literally the first lewd game I ever played) and now the grand finale is here.

I think that your planned endings will be great, as has this game as a whole. Best of luck!

 

[Apollo Seven]

Hi Apollo,

Honestly to me you sound like you have the game developer version of "stage fright." You've been working on this game for years (it's literally the first lewd game I ever played) and now the grand finale is here.

I think that your planned endings will be great, as has this game as a whole. Best of luck!

I think there's some truth to that. It's the end of the game and I want to make sure it's done right or the rest of the game will feel worse. Maybe I also got a little spooked by how badly received the endings in Futa Oasis seemed to be overall as well.

 

[Apollo Seven]

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