VN Unity Karen... WTF!? Dev Diary? - Developer Rants and Frustrations

Nov 19, 2018
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Well, here we are. Another soul signing up for the mad crusade of making one of these AVNs.

This thread isn't meant to be a dev diary, a dev log, or anything presumptuous... I know myself, I’ll be too lazy to write a diary... What I really need is a thread to vent about the million and one bullshit things I keep running into... I’m sure many of you will relate. And if you’ve got solutions to my problems, I’m all ears.

Here go my first rant said:
Can this piece of shit Daz3D stop crashing when I try to edit geometries? I just need to delete freaking trees from the background, and stoopid Daz keeps throwing errors at me and deleting all my progress. Do I need to find another freakin scene? I really don't want to look for another enviroment...

By the way, if anyone’s curious, my first AVN, my opera prima, my pain in the ars, my digital abortion that most likely nobody will play...
  • Name: Karen... WTF!?
  • Plot: Lonely girl at home gets hungry and orders pizza. What happens next will blow your mind...
  • Engine: Unity NaniNovel (Probably)
  • Motivation: SUPER HIGH!
  • GameDev Experience: brainfart. (the game's just an excuse to test myself and put theory into practice)
WTF-22.png
 
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MissFortune

I Was Once, Possibly, Maybe, Perhaps… A Harem King
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Aug 17, 2019
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Can this piece of shit Daz3D stop crashing when I try to edit geometries? I just need to delete freaking trees from the background, and stoopid Daz keeps throwing errors at me and deleting all my progress. Do I need to find another freakin scene? I really don't want to look for another enviroment...
Are you using the Geometry Editor to delete trees/other objects? Geometry Editor should be used lightly, if not rarely. Depending on the asset, you can just delete the objects themselves, or hide them with the opacity slider via the Surfaces pane.

Engine: Unity NaniNovel (Probably)
Any reason in particular? If it's just a basic visual novel, then Unity is going to needlessly overcomplicate the process and likely cut off a decent portion of users on lower-end hardware. As opposed to something like Ren'py, which is built for it.
 
Nov 19, 2018
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42
Depending on the asset, you can just delete the objects themselves, or hide them with the opacity slider via the Surfaces pane.
Because I have the : 50 trees, 30 houses, lots of bushes, props everywhere... each thing full of polygons that my gcard does not need. Downside? It's composed of 1 or 2 objects?!
  1. the pavement of the street,
  2. the rest. (it's like 10 objects in fact, but everything is grouped, but scene is so massive it's hard to even navigate through it)
I only want to use 3 houses and 4 trees... It's the only thing the camera will capture after all. So, in theory, should be as easy as this:
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But seems the bootiful street I acquired has the whole geometries inter-f*k-twined? You touch it and, it breaks daz, it breaks my computer, it breaks my soul... And I don't know how to do it better.

Unity is going to needlessly overcomplicate the process and likely cut off a decent portion of users on lower-end hardware. As opposed to something like Ren'py, which is built for it.
I hear you, and 100% agree. Would not make sense if my ambitions were to produce straight-forward AVN in the long run. But my ambition is larger than, possibly, maybe, perhaps... my current cappabilities (or my intelligence, time will tell).
This AVN is a way to experiment wiht engines without going nuts. Can't build the Empire state building b4 testing myself first with a country-side farm-house.
 

Turning Tricks

Rendering Fantasies
Game Developer
Apr 9, 2022
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Because I have the : 50 trees, 30 houses, lots of bushes, props everywhere... each thing full of polygons that my gcard does not need. Downside? It's composed of 1 or 2 objects?!
  1. the pavement of the street,
  2. the rest. (it's like 10 objects in fact, but everything is grouped, but scene is so massive it's hard to even navigate through it)
I only want to use 3 houses and 4 trees... It's the only thing the camera will capture after all. So, in theory, should be as easy as this:
You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.
But seems the bootiful street I acquired has the whole geometries inter-f*k-twined? You touch it and, it breaks daz, it breaks my computer, it breaks my soul... And I don't know how to do it better.


I hear you, and 100% agree. Would not make sense if my ambitions were to produce straight-forward AVN in the long run. But my ambition is larger than, possibly, maybe, perhaps... my current cappabilities (or my intelligence, time will tell).
This AVN is a way to experiment wiht engines without going nuts. Can't build the Empire state building b4 testing myself first with a country-side farm-house.

Honestly,

I just loaded this street asset to take a look-see and I have to say - it's probably one of the worst built assets I have ever seen. It's 2GB of textures that were compressed to 385MB in the archive and there's no way to load separate parts. Only the complete sections (like all houses.. all trees.. etc)

Also, everything is done as instances, so any changes to one item effects every other item.

My advice... worth about 2 cents, lol ... ditch trying to get the "perfect backdrop" and use one that is easier to work with, renders fast and can be customized. Otherwise you'll find yourself spending dozens of hours fucking with this bloated scene asset only to make what is basically a background for what should instead be the focus of your renders (the protag(s) - story).

Unless the focus is real estate, lol.

If you are determined to keep at this asset, then I suggest you load in each separate group of objects (for example TreeToadGrp) Then, they will be spaced apart without any other objects in the way. Use the marquee selection in your geometry editor and you should be able to just drag a box around a whole tree and delete the polygons (69K of them on a single tree!)

Reason you are crashing is that this asset is literally choking your VRAM to death. Like I said, I have 16GB of Vram in a 4060 card and 64 GB of RAM and my view port almost shit the bed when I loaded this complete scene. Even with only one group of objects on the screen, it took DAZ about 10 seconds to start the geometry editor tool after I selected it. This asset creator must have been using a supercomputer to not notice how badly optimized this thing was.
 

MissFortune

I Was Once, Possibly, Maybe, Perhaps… A Harem King
Respected User
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Aug 17, 2019
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7,793
But seems the bootiful street I acquired has the whole geometries inter-f*k-twined? You touch it and, it breaks daz, it breaks my computer, it breaks my soul... And I don't know how to do it better.
Kinda hard to say without knowing your hardware. But I suppose there's a reason an asset like this is on RenderHub and not the official Daz Store (where it's sorely needed, tbh.). Turning Tricks seems to be right. Neither of my 4090s seem to like the asset very much, though I'm sure it's running better than on most PCs due to that.

It's a bit lower in polys, but something like might work a little better. It also looks close enough to what you're after. Don't know about the interiors and such, though. It's a little less normal looking, but something like from Dreamlight might also work. The Dreamlight one hovers around 10GB of VRAM or so, but a run of Scene Optimizer should also do the trick. Also not ideal if you're looking for realistic grass. is fairly light weight and can be instanced.
 
Nov 19, 2018
86
42
Honestly,

I just loaded this street asset to take a look-see and I have to say - it's probably one of the worst built assets I have ever seen. It's 2GB of textures that were compressed to 385MB in the archive and there's no way to load separate parts. Only the complete sections (like all houses.. all trees.. etc)

Also, everything is done as instances, so any changes to one item effects every other item.

My advice... worth about 2 cents, lol ... ditch trying to get the "perfect backdrop" and use one that is easier to work with, renders fast and can be customized. Otherwise you'll find yourself spending dozens of hours fucking with this bloated scene asset only to make what is basically a background for what should instead be the focus of your renders (the protag(s) - story).

Unless the focus is real estate, lol.

If you are determined to keep at this asset, then I suggest you load in each separate group of objects (for example TreeToadGrp) Then, they will be spaced apart without any other objects in the way. Use the marquee selection in your geometry editor and you should be able to just drag a box around a whole tree and delete the polygons (69K of them on a single tree!)

Reason you are crashing is that this asset is literally choking your VRAM to death. Like I said, I have 16GB of Vram in a 4060 card and 64 GB of RAM and my view port almost shit the bed when I loaded this complete scene. Even with only one group of objects on the screen, it took DAZ about 10 seconds to start the geometry editor tool after I selected it. This asset creator must have been using a supercomputer to not notice how badly optimized this thing was.
After tons of deleting, even more crashing, patience, sweat, and tears, I’ve ended up with something that “works for me”. Were there easier options? Definitely. But I had no clue they existed. The upside? I’ve learned that my stubbornness is stronger than the Daz3D geometry editor... and my graphics card has a new kink: being vram-choked to death.

BBBBBBBUT check out the GORGEOUS neighborhood that’s only visible through doors and windows... You can’t tell me it wasn’t worth the +10 hours I spent on this killer background, right? (kill me please)

House Window.png House inside 3.png
 
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MissFortune

I Was Once, Possibly, Maybe, Perhaps… A Harem King
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Aug 17, 2019
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Nov 19, 2018
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Kinda hard to say without knowing your hardware. But I suppose there's a reason an asset like this is on RenderHub and not the official Daz Store (where it's sorely needed, tbh.). Turning Tricks seems to be right. Neither of my 4090s seem to like the asset very much, though I'm sure it's running better than on most PCs due to that.

It's a bit lower in polys, but something like might work a little better. It also looks close enough to what you're after. Don't know about the interiors and such, though. It's a little less normal looking, but something like from Dreamlight might also work. The Dreamlight one hovers around 10GB of VRAM or so, but a run of Scene Optimizer should also do the trick. Also not ideal if you're looking for realistic grass. is fairly light weight and can be instanced.
I need you on my speed dial.

Hardware: I’m rocking a second-hand 3090. Bumping into this neighborhood has been a good reality check. From now on, I must use assets from Daz3d Store as a first priority

About the realistic grass... Don't tempt me, it's already hard enough to stop myself from being too picky. In the end, it's what Turning Tricks said: the game isn't about real estate (it's about pizza, oc).
 
Nov 19, 2018
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42
Rant #2:
How the f*k people release new game versions every month with 1k renders and hundreds of written pages?

Today I spent 2 hours to put the right pose, lights, camera settings, DForce clothes and everything, only for 3 stupid frames. Am I missing something? Anyone has any tips or tutorials on how to speed up this process?
 
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osanaiko

Engaged Member
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Jul 4, 2017
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How the f*k people release new game versions every month with 1k renders and hundreds of written pages?
Games that can keep up that rate of content production are very few and far between. Generally they would be using outsourced team members for at least some of the work. they might also be doing it as a full time job. Don't worry about it, just go at your own pace - the only important thing is to never stop. The game is only dead when you stop working on it.

Blender donut guy gave me the wisdom of doing the "at least one thing per day rule". Even if you can only stomach five minutes at least open the editor and change one thing. Odds are that once you get over the activation energy to get started, you'll find yourself going for much longer than 5 mins (unlike my sex life).
 
Nov 19, 2018
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Blender donut guy gave me the wisdom of doing the "at least one thing per day rule". Even if you can only stomach five minutes at least open the editor and change one thing. Odds are that once you get over the activation energy to get started, you'll find yourself going for much longer than 5 mins (unlike my sex life).
Thanks, dude, I really appreciate your motivational words—they were exactly what I needed today. :)

I think I'm starting to understand why people write dev logs. Sure, there’s a bit of self-promotion, but making an AVN isn’t easy... Having a community or a support group behind you, helping to keep the motivation up, seems to be what really pushes projects to keep moving forward.

(wait, creating AVNs does not count as sex life?)
 
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osanaiko

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Today I spent 2 hours to put the right pose, lights, camera settings, DForce clothes and everything, only for 3 stupid frames. Am I missing something? Anyone has any tips or tutorials on how to speed up this process?
I'll have a go at answering this one as well. These are all tips I've picked up from lurking these forums and the daz official forums for years. (please ignore the fact that I am all talk and no game release, i promise i have lots of stillborn projects on which I actually did some stuff but never got far enough to release something)

1. it takes some time to get up to speed with the tools. as you get more experienced you'll be faster at doing stuff. a factor of 5x-10x improvement is not unreasonable.

2. if you're doing a "lot of renders" style of game, you'll inevitably get situations where there are dozens to hundreds of images that are set in the same scene or environment, with the same characters wearing the same clothes. This leads to being able to re-use previous work by selectively combining posed/dressed figures with already-set-up scenes.

3. You can optimise for "2." above by building up a "library" of saved sub-scene assets. i.e. a series of subfolders for the characters, with the base morph, and with the different clothing sets, and saved variations of pose or expression. Then you can "merge" those into your new scenes as needed. Similarly you should end up with a bunch of saved environments with all the extra decoration assets, lights and cameras already set up.

4. If you are not already using overnight/during work hours batch rendering, then grab "manfriday render queue" and start doing it! During your hands-on time, you work just to get the scene to "ready to render" state but don't actually commit the 20-30 mins needed to finish the render. just do low-res or low-iterations tests to make sure it is not borked, then save it and add it to a queue for a slow beautiful high-iteration render that is carried out by a magic robot when you are asleep.

4a. Selectively use Ai denoise tools to get away with reduced iteration counts - you shouldn't need much more than 2000-3000 for any scene (although there are exceptions). Use the "layered denoise technique" where you use an image editor to combine the orignal render (with high details) with an overlaid denoised copy, then adjust the transparency of the top layer / paint different parts with lower or higher transparency to remove the worst render noise parts while retaining details on important / low-noise areas.

5. use daz "spot render" tool to fix minor issues like poke through or to fix/update expressions or poses without needing to re-render the whole scene. You'll need to use an image editor to overlay the fixed parts but that's easy stuff.

6. avoid excessive d-force clothing or hair items as much as you can. they mostly don't add much to a scene and they cost a lot of time to both scene setup and render time. d-force is also quite bug prone so can be a hassle to iteratively get working or can even crash your daz! (there are of course situations where it is vital but those should be the exception, not the rule)

7. be super organised with your file folder structure and naming conventions. saves a lot of time when putting the renders into the game script, or looking to find stuff. A corollary of this is to ruthlessly delete/don't save bad stuff - if your folders are cluttered with trash renders, it's just wasting your cognitive power when looking for the good stuff.

8. make sure you are using daz in the way that makes the user interface as responsive as possible:
- there's a dropdown in the Daz settings for UI performance. It defaults to "compatibility" mode, but you should always choose performance if you have a modern video card. (the naming might be slightly different, it's been a while since I've had to change it.)
- while posing and navigating, switch to the low-resource (or hidden) versions of hair items unless you are specifically working with them
- don't install lots of random figures into your daz library folder, it causes scene load times to dramatically increase! If you've already done this and your install is dog slow, there's a tool by "NSWare" on this forum that helps clean up unused character assets (moves them out of the daz library paths to a storage folder) which can make a big difference. If you still want to try adding more figure assets, then create a different secondary library folder and use DIM installer to put the new ones in there. You can then disconnect the slow folder when you're working on your game waifus via the "content library manager" in daz UI.
- become one with the viewport camera movement controls. daz has a fucking bizzare and annoying nav system that makes you want to burn their office to the ground if you are coming from a different 3d software. but it is what it is and you just have to get used to it. Learn to love the "tool settings" panel to adjust the movement speed of the WASDQE keys to be suitable for the situation - large steps when moving around the scene, small steps for fine tuning.

9. save lots of progress copies of your scenes!! Daz loves to crash and occaisionally corrupt your files. Also, quitting and reloading daz periodically can cure memory leaks or slowdowns.
 
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Nov 19, 2018
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I'll have a go at answering this one as well. These are all tips I've picked up from lurking these forums and the daz official forums for years. (please ignore the fact that I am all talk and no game release, i promise i have lots of stillborn projects on which I actually did some stuff but never got far enough to release something)
My friend! Thanks for these tips! :)) I must find some tutorial with "pro tips" to speed up tasks in Daz.

I'm already applying many of the things you mentioned: sub-scenes, denoise tools, and such. I don’t go over 300 iterations per scene, except in specific spots like faces or important elements where I use spot render (Who needs to see the shampoo bottle the model uses in full detail, right?).

Avoiding D-force is something I'm learning the hard way by banging my head against the wall. And I really need to implement what you mentioned in point 8 about performance mode and having two asset libraries. My library is a mess, everything in one place, over 2k assets, almost all poses. Also, I haven’t found a quick way to switch assets from high to low resource, and doing it one by one seems like a bit of a nightmare.

So far, I haven’t had the misfortune of Daz corrupting my files... let's not jinx it.
 
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Nov 19, 2018
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Today, I hit a whopping 100 renders. Easier said than done. It's been many, many hours. How many exactly? A total of 94 hours. Yes, I’ve been keeping track.

And here’s what they were for:
  • Choosing and downloading Daz3D Assets = 4h
  • Setting up the scene = 8h
  • Creating scenes and characters (posing, lighting, cameras, rendering) = 81h
Here’s one of my first images... total newbie stuff, I didn’t even remember to adjust the camera depth... If I have the scene saved, I think I'll redo it.

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WTF-06.png