VN Ren'Py Completed Haley's Story [v1.1 Pre-Patched] [Viitgames]

[Segnbora]

I'm not sure if Klaus was that important. There was a connection between the MC and Haley way before Klaus, which didn't turn physical but IIRC both already fantasized about it.

Ultimately, Klaus wasn't important because the devs gave up on his story. But Haley makes the connection between what he did to her and subsequently clinging to her brother (when they were both much younger) explicit, and it's fairly clear that her mother isn't blind to the timing of the connection...even if she doesn't know how it manifested.

I have a deep and ongoing annoyance with most incest games because almost none of them attempt to justify flipping the attraction switch (much less following through on it) outside porn logic; there's a boy, there's a sister/mother/aunt, and they will inevitably fuck because Reasons. Far too many of them advance plots with things like sleep rape, because the authors aren't mature or sexually experienced enough to conceive of any other possible reason that a woman would want to have sex with someone who'd previously been considered off-limits. I'd find these games a lot more interesting if there were reasonable justifications in the narrative. And I'm certainly not saying that I want incest games to be tortured psychodramas about childhood trauma, the Westermarck Effect/sexual imprinting, or crushing waves of guilt that only decades of therapy can solve, because no one would play games like that.

But one of the reasons I was willing to give the Klaus story the benefit of the doubt — a wasted benefit, as it turned out — was because it could've forced Haley to examine the actual source of her obvious attraction to her brother. A little psychodrama. Some therapy. Some dealing with the guilt. Not taking over the story, but an internal conflict that has to be resolved before she can move forward with their relationship. It could've taken a story and characterization that was already stupendous and made it legendary. They still could've ended up together (with or without beards), but with a much more solid foundation that we actually got.

Obviously, it ended as nothing of the sort. But it remains a wasted opportunity.

 

[Quetzzz]

Ultimately, Klaus wasn't important because the devs gave up on his story. But Haley makes the connection between what he did to her and subsequently clinging to her brother (when they were both much younger) explicit, and it's fairly clear that her mother isn't blind to the timing of the connection...even if she doesn't know how it manifested.

Not trying to fact-check you, but do you remember how Haley makes that connection? I remember them talking about Haley having had feelings for the MC for a long time, and the MC admitting that he thought of her in a sexual way only once. But I missed her making that connection to Klaus.

Their mother knows what happened with Klaus, since she put a stop to it. She even encourages the MC to stay with his sister, when dad talks about them splitting ways. I think she also makes a remark about "dating an older man", when the topic comes up about Haley breaking up with her lover.
I don't think the mother knows that the siblings are intimate, and her motivation has more to do with having little trust in Haley's life choices.

I have a deep and ongoing annoyance with most incest games because almost none of them attempt to justify flipping the attraction switch (much less following through on it) outside porn logic; there's a boy, there's a sister/mother/aunt, and they will inevitably fuck because Reasons. Far too many of them advance plots with things like sleep rape, because the authors aren't mature or sexually experienced enough to conceive of any other possible reason that a woman would want to have sex with someone who'd previously been considered off-limits. I'd find these games a lot more interesting if there were reasonable justifications in the narrative. And I'm certainly not saying that I want incest games to be tortured psychodramas about childhood trauma, the Westermarck Effect/sexual imprinting, or crushing waves of guilt that only decades of therapy can solve, because no one would play games like that.

You're absolutely right about this. Guy leaves home for 6 months, after returning, all females in his vicinity want to jump his bones... Exploring actual reasons would be interesting. It doesn't have to be trauma, it could be a boy stepping up and taking care of his family, becoming an attractive man to them. Exploring those conflicting emotions, the push and pull, could make for an interesting and erotic story. Hell, it doesn't even need to be incest related. A boy stepping up and becoming a man is in itself is a reason to suddenly get the attention from women.

 

[Segnbora]

Not trying to fact-check you, but do you remember how Haley makes that connection?

I could swear that there was a conversation between two someones in which Haley's attraction to her brother escalated post-Klaus. But I'm not going to go back to the game (which I no longer have on my hard drive) to check, so maybe I'm making the whole thing up.

Their mother knows what happened with Klaus, since she put a stop to it. [...] I don't think the mother knows that the siblings are intimate, and her motivation has more to do with having little trust in Haley's life choices.

I'm not saying that she knows about the siblings' actual activities, but that she has a very specific view of Haley's decision-making abilities and why she needs to rely on her brother, while at the same time having a negative view of that reliance because she doesn't respect her daughter. That, to me, suggests that she understands (perhaps subconsciously) that there's something dysfunctional about the siblings' relationship.

You're absolutely right about this. Guy leaves home for 6 months, after returning, all females in his vicinity want to jump his bones... Exploring actual reasons would be interesting.

Exactly.

 

[Quetzzz]

I'm not saying that she knows about the siblings' actual activities, but that she has a very specific view of Haley's decision-making abilities and why she needs to rely on her brother, while at the same time having a negative view of that reliance because she doesn't respect her daughter. That, to me, suggests that she understands (perhaps subconsciously) that there's something dysfunctional about the siblings' relationship.

Oh right, In that case we agree completely. I would've loved exploring her motivations more. I wouldn't be surprised if it's caused by the "keeping up appearances"-syndrome, and using her son to avoid the daughter bringing shame to the family (again).

 

[Segnbora]

I wouldn't be surprised if it's caused by the "keeping up appearances"-syndrome, and using her son to avoid the daughter bringing shame to the family (again).

Haley's dad, of course, rather strongly suspects something's going on, and acts accordingly.

I would just love to see a game that took the inevitable reluctance seriously. I don't mean that the game has to be a massive slow burn — one sister could be "I've always wanted my brother, because (let's have the game give us some reasons other than he's been touching her while she sleeps") while the other proves a difficult puzzle to unlock — but make it make sense, at least.

 

[Quetzzz]

Haley's dad, of course, rather strongly suspects something's going on, and acts accordingly.

But he also does this in a boundary crossing way. I get that he's worried, but checking up on her while she's at therapy? That's a big red flag. I don't understand why Haley wasn't mad at that intrusion.
And if their father didn't suspect actual sexual activity, he will as soon as the MC gives him the "Do you really want to know what we're doing?"-speech.

Again, so many missed opportunities for characterization, to have people actually talk out their issues.

I would just love to see a game that took the inevitable reluctance seriously. I don't mean that the game has to be a massive slow burn — one sister could be "I've always wanted my brother, because (let's have the game give us some reasons other than he's been touching her while she sleeps)" while the other proves a difficult puzzle to unlock — but make it make sense, at least.

From what I remember, Sisterly Lust does this, somewhat. It's been a while, so I could be entirely wrong. The path with the older sister is more difficult and longer, with her love path opening by taking care of her and being there for her, and a submission path using blackmail. (I suspect this game started that whole trope, but I can't be sure.)
I think the nightly visits are entirely optional, at least.

 

[Beduin123]

From what I remember, Sisterly Lust does this, somewhat. It's been a while, so I could be entirely wrong.

Exactly. That game also came to my mind when I read Segnbora's comment. But I recalled of the middle sister Bella. On the other hand, Bella's tsundere behavior doesn't last long in the game. Very soon she goes either full sub or lovey-dovey type of relationship.
Speaking of Lisa, she is the most timid of the three when it comes to relationships in spite of being the eldest sister. Unfortunately, the renders of her aren't very pleasing to the eye, she looks like a cow type of girl , which makes her the least desirable for me in my playthough

coming back to discussion about Haley, I agree that everything is a matter of personal preference, and here I strongly differ from Kadajko and the likes. I'm more of a protective, taking the responsibility type of guy, so for me the vulnerable Haley needing protection is even more attractive than a confident or prickly one.

 

[Quetzzz]

coming back to discussion about Haley, I agree that everything is a matter of personal preference, and here I strongly differ from Kadajko and the likes. I'm more of a protective, taking the responsibility type of guy, so for me the vulnerable Haley needing protection is even more attractive than a confident or prickly one.

I can relate to that... But her bratty/prickly side made it difficult for me to wanting to be there for her.

An example I made a note of while playing:
After the squash match with Haley, she teases the MC again about being gay:
MC: "For fuck's sake!"
Haley: "Relax, I'm just joking!"
MC: "Jesus!"
Haley: "Wash the sand out of your vagina, will you?"
I'm now presented with the choice "Do you offer a massage: Yes/No", After that interaction, she can fuck off.

 

[Beduin123]

I can relate to that... But her bratty/prickly side made it difficult for me to wanting to be there for her.

It is just her external protection to hide her vulnerability. In spite of all this (sometimes harsh) teasing she is very fragile inside. At least I can see it. She is checking if you are afraid of her teasing or not. If you aren't, you are mature enough to protect both of you. It is purely female stuff, happens quite often IRL.

There is nothing women value more in men than well grounded self-confidence. Not appearance, not money, not even social status. They have a special sense for that.

 

[Yngling]

Ultimately, Klaus wasn't important because the devs gave up on his story. But Haley makes the connection between what he did to her and subsequently clinging to her brother (when they were both much younger) explicit, and it's fairly clear that her mother isn't blind to the timing of the connection...even if she doesn't know how it manifested.

I'm not so sure about that. Klaus definitely had some sort of impact on Haley but whether or not it had an impact on her relationship with the MC or not, that's the question.

I have a deep and ongoing annoyance with most incest games because almost none of them attempt to justify flipping the attraction switch (much less following through on it) outside porn logic; there's a boy, there's a sister/mother/aunt, and they will inevitably fuck because Reasons. Far too many of them advance plots with things like sleep rape, because the authors aren't mature or sexually experienced enough to conceive of any other possible reason that a woman would want to have sex with someone who'd previously been considered off-limits.

You are absolutely right about that.

I'd find these games a lot more interesting if there were reasonable justifications in the narrative. And I'm certainly not saying that I want incest games to be tortured psychodramas about childhood trauma, the Westermarck Effect/sexual imprinting, or crushing waves of guilt that only decades of therapy can solve, because no one would play games like that.

You are right about that as well. Most people won't want to play something so dark as what actual IRL incest often is. But justification why the incest happens would be really nice. Sibling incest is especially interesting in this respect because there are less power dynamics compared to parent-child incest.

Some games do delve into it, like Our Fate. Some others also approach the topic rather realistically like Intimate Relations.

But you are right, it's unfortunately rare, even though it could really improve depth of the story and the characters.

But one of the reasons I was willing to give the Klaus story the benefit of the doubt — a wasted benefit, as it turned out — was because it could've forced Haley to examine the actual source of her obvious attraction to her brother. A little psychodrama. Some therapy. Some dealing with the guilt. Not taking over the story, but an internal conflict that has to be resolved before she can move forward with their relationship. It could've taken a story and characterization that was already stupendous and made it legendary. They still could've ended up together (with or without beards), but with a much more solid foundation that we actually got.

Obviously, it ended as nothing of the sort. But it remains a wasted opportunity.

I think the question is Klaus was the right vehicle for that, and, in retrospect, I don't think so.

Without Klaus, it would have been a happy romance, with good and likeable characters, which is what, I think, most players wanted.

And a bit of soul searching would have been possible without Klaus as well. For example, by using the parents more.

 

[Walter Victor]

I think the question is Klaus was the right vehicle for that, and, in retrospect, I don't think so.

Right or wrong, Klaus was the vehicle the developers wanted to utilize. It was their story.

Without Klaus, it would have been a happy romance, with good and likeable characters, which is what, I think, most players wanted.

Undoubtedly, although I must say that the revelation of what Klaus had done caused a much more empathetic reaction from ME toward Haley, especially as the details of how it happened were revealed. Other reactions obviously varied.

 

[Quetzzz]

It is just her external protection to hide her vulnerability. In spite of all this (sometimes harsh) teasing she is very fragile inside. At least I can see it. She is checking if you are afraid of her teasing or not. If you aren't, you are mature enough to protect both of you. It is purely female stuff, happens quite often IRL.

I'm not sure about that. Somewhere near the end of the game, Haley insults and negs the MC, then says (paraphrasing) "I'm glad I can be myself around you."
She's a brat, and is (literally) begging to be manhandled. When women tease you like this, and you retreat, you lose man-points.

 

[csbond2]

Merry Christmas Everyone

 

[Segnbora]

But he also does this in a boundary crossing way. I get that he's worried, but checking up on her while she's at therapy? That's a big red flag. I don't understand why Haley wasn't mad at that intrusion.

Because she's terrified that her parents will see what's really going on with her and her brother. She'll do anything to avoid them knowing for sure. Her father is obviously against it, and her mother would think even less of her.

Of course, that's another of the story's failures — all of the endings require them (and perhaps others) to keep their secret forever, including (if you choose to impregnate her) their child/her parents' grandchild — but that, again, is another failure of most incest games. A beard is fine, but eventually the relationship is either going to become public or it's going to have to be relentlessly hidden. It's simply unrealistic.

Again, so many missed opportunities for characterization, to have people actually talk out their issues.

Well, exactly. There's a really terrific, realistic incest game waiting to be written. I don't think realism has to suppress the hotness of the transgression; if anything, I'd think realism would make the perversion hotter. There are plenty of stories on the various sites that host such things that take the subject seriously. I'm not sure I recall a game that took every aspect of the concept seriously. There are better incest games, and halfway through Haley's Story I didn't think I'd be saying that.

From what I remember, Sisterly Lust does this, somewhat. It's been a while, so I could be entirely wrong. The path with the older sister is more difficult and longer, with her love path opening by taking care of her and being there for her, and a submission path using blackmail. (I suspect this game started that whole trope, but I can't be sure.)

It's been a while, but isn't the super-reluctant blonde the oldest sister, while the middle one (Bella?) is the sister that can have a love or d/s route? Anyway, Sisterly Lust is one of my very favorite incest games. I wouldn't say it's realistic, but it treats the fetish with realism and doesn't make it super-easy for the player/MC.

I'm not so sure about that. Klaus definitely had some sort of impact on Haley but whether or not it had an impact on her relationship with the MC or not, that's the question.

Again, this might be me either making things up or extrapolating from arguments I made in this thread back when the game was being developed. But I find it very difficult to believe that a girl already attached to her brother wouldn't cling to that attachment after what Klaus did to her, especially since she obviously couldn't go to her parents (specifically including her mother) about it.

Haley's sexuality was forcibly deformed. That's going to have an impact. Whether or not it had a role in her attachment to/attraction to her brother is obviously unprovable, except perhaps during intense therapy. Personally, I would have loved to see the game ask that question, and maybe even answer it.

But justification why the incest happens would be really nice. Sibling incest is especially interesting in this respect because there are less power dynamics compared to parent-child incest.

The truth is that I don't really enjoy generational incest. Sibling incest (or cousins, etc.) is much more interesting to me, because (as you say) the power dynamics of generational incest add a creepiness that makes it difficult for me to embrace the concept.

I think the question is Klaus was the right vehicle for that, and, in retrospect, I don't think so. Without Klaus, it would have been a happy romance, with good and likeable characters, which is what, I think, most players wanted.

Again, what I thought they might try was something more difficult and challenging. Ultimately, they just threw up their hands and pretended that they'd never made the attempt, which was far worse than never introducing him in the first place.

I know that most people probably wanted a happy incestuous romance. I actually hoped they'd have some difficulties, because that's a more interesting story, and until Klaus they'd experienced almost no friction. And you're right that their parents (or their bosses, or Sandra, or really any of their friends/the MC's lovers) could've been a way to introduce that difficulty without the deformation of Haley's rape.

For Klaus to work it required them to dig into the psychology of Haley's attraction, and they not only weren't up to that task, they actively fled it. Again, it would've been better if they never introduced him.

 

[Quetzzz]

It's been a while, but isn't the super-reluctant blonde the oldest sister, while the middle one (Bella?) is the sister that can have a love or d/s route? Anyway, Sisterly Lust is one of my very favorite incest games. I wouldn't say it's realistic, but it treats the fetish with realism and doesn't make it super-easy for the player/MC.

Yes, you're entirely right. It's been so long that I forgot there are 3 sisters, not 2.

 

[Segnbora]

Yes, you're entirely right. It's been so long that I forgot there are 3 sisters, not 2.

Worry not; you made me want to play the game again.

 

[Yngling]

Of course, that's another of the story's failures — all of the endings require them (and perhaps others) to keep their secret forever, including (if you choose to impregnate her) their child/her parents' grandchild — but that, again, is another failure of most incest games. A beard is fine, but eventually the relationship is either going to become public or it's going to have to be relentlessly hidden. It's simply unrealistic.

I think it's not just a problem with incest games, it's a problem with incest period.

Nobody will accept the relationship so either you move to somewhere nobody knows you or you get a beard and keep lying to everybody.

It's not easy. And that is even not considering how legal it is where you live.

Perhaps it could be an interesting topic in a game. Most incest games end shortly after they finally had sex with each other, but it could be a challenge to continue their relationship while keeping it hidden from everybody.

For the rest, well said!

 

[Quetzzz]

It's not easy. And that is even not considering how legal it is where you live.

In my country, any form of incest is legal between consenting and independent adults. So setting the game in a country with similar laws could take away the legal aspects, and purely focus on the social and ethical/moral aspects of incest.

 

[Yngling]

In my country, any form of incest is legal between consenting and independent adults. So setting the game in a country with similar laws could take away the legal aspects, and purely focus on the social and ethical/moral aspects of incest.

Yes, legality of incest between consenting adults varies quite a bit between countries.

But even if "it" is legal, that does not make it socially acceptable.

Also, in some countries, incestual sex is legal, but incestual marriage is not possible. Which makes having a long-term incestual relationship difficult from an economic viewpoint.

Of course the degree of kinship is also important. In many countries, there is no strong taboo on cousin "incest" for example.

 

[Segnbora]

In my country, any form of incest is legal between consenting and independent adults. So setting the game in a country with similar laws could take away the legal aspects, and purely focus on the social and ethical/moral aspects of incest.

While true, I suspect that people who are especially interested in incest games would find a setting in which it's legal and/or socially acceptable to be far less "hot." I think the transgressive/unacceptable element is likely essential to the fetish. But I'm just guessing; I play (some) incest games because there are so many of them, but it's not my kink.