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VN Ren'Py Friends in Need [Ch. 8 v0.57b SE] [NeonGhosts]

4.60 star(s) 177 Votes
Discussion Reviews (177)
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PHIL101-YYouPPHard

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Jan 11, 2022
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Machete said:
Well, actually yes, and this is an amazing analogy. It didn't happen to me, but i know a lot of people who skipped the "boring POVs" of ASoIaF. I don't know how they kept pace with the story but i know they did.

And this is an amazing analogy because Friends in Need is suffering from the very same situation.

It's only normal that players, even more than Martin's readers, being this a waifus porn game, have their favored characters and their characters they like less or not at all. And of course every sequence about that LI they don't like is the "boring POV" to them. And it's pretty much unavoidable in a game with a solid narrative like this one. Other games get around this problem just setting the narration like "opt. A, this sequence plays, opt. B, it doesn't, but the story goes on the same anyway", but i don't think this can be applied to Friends in Need.

Please understand that we might like to fight and be jerks here, but we are, by the end of the day, just providing feedbacks. If it's a common occourrence that players complain about 'to much time on character X and too little on character Y' maybe there actually is some perceived issue.

Personally, by my point of view, and i'm by no mean a prefessional storyteller, i think the problem is there are too many characters and LIs to begin with. As i mentioned, and having been a software developed and a university graduated in computer science myself i have an idea, forking means exponential. The more you have mutually exclusive events, the more paths you need to keep writing and developing short of later killing/merging branches.

That's why i hypothesized that, at a certain point, the game will need to be rationalizied, meaning that you will need to choose which plot to carry on and which to close or drop and whether to sideline and demote some less popular LIs (and of course there will be tears and gnashing of teeth).

Again, it's just feedbacks and good spirited recommendations.
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I do see your point, even though I'm personally not convinced tbh.

I know this is outside of what was being discussed, but aside from the story reasons that Neon's already discussed, I think it's important to remember the other benefits of a large LI count; for example, audience capture (and the business from it). I kinda feel like the diverse number of LIs is a big part of what gave this game its popularity. I'm no expert certainly, but the way I see it is this: whoever was captivated even by a single LI might be willing to play, spread the word, and/or pay, even if only when their favorite LI is coming up in an update (or two). And then you multiply that by all the LIs. And then you consider that a portion of those players might be willing to play, spread the word, and/or pay even outside of their favorite LI coming up. That's a good business decision imo.

ename144 said:
I've said before that I do not question your work ethic and I stand by that. The rate at which you produce not only content, but high quality content, is fantastic. The question is, as you say, about the big picture, and personally I don't find your Storm of Swords analogy all that reassuring. There's a lot to be gained by having a broad focus and big vibrant world, no question. I can't help but notice, however, that by tinkering with his basic storyline to add lots of extra content for side characters, Martin created such a tangled mess that he's spent over a decade trying to sort things out and there's no end in sight. Frankly it seems unlikely he'll ever finish the series.

I don't want that to happen to this game. So if I seem to be complaining about you or your work, please understand it is never meant as a slight. This game has nearly limitless potential, but we're all only mortal. IMHO, sometimes seeing the big picture means cutting a little of the potential short so you can actually capitalize on the rest.
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I personally wonder if Martin decided that his story & setting was so big, that not including more Houses, more regions, more characters, to take part in what's clearly going to be a HUGE, HUGE event in Westeros... would make his story feel so much smaller, less fully realized, and would probably be something he would regret as an author later.

Yeah, maybe not the best analogy for reassurance to some people "Martin's taking fucking forever, he'll never finish", the understanding being that "Neon's taking fucking forever, he'll never finish". But, let's not forget: ASoIAF is a masterpiece.. and it's a masterpiece because GRRM is doing all the torturous legwork to ensure it. And even more importantly: Neon isn't GRRM, and FIN isn't ASoIAF; two different authors, two completely, vastly different works (mediums, even). We're not going to be waiting a decade for a porn VN release to come out, I don't think.. lol. Highly doubtful the whole game will take that long, too, even given its character size. If it does, then I'll scooch over to ya'lls side. :LOL: Until then, I see good, regular progress being made.
 
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PHIL101-YYouPPHard

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Jan 11, 2022
697
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NebulousShooter said:
Stuff
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I really, really hope this doesn't fuel any drama or anything, as that's not my intention. Well, ..you're being a little too confident & strident with your recommendations towards a game that's not even yours; maybe you don't mean to be, but seriously, if you were the dev and you had read this reply, it would come off as pretty noxious to you I think. Like, in the midst of asking your questions about his design decisions, you accuse & criticize before even waiting for the answer.

Anyways, shoving more LIs into each update would just decrease the writing quality, wouldn't it? We're still in the "getting to know each LI" phase, so I kinda feel like "everyone waits their turn" is actually the best possible way to do it. After we've gotten the meat & potatoes of each LI down, Neon has said that sex scenes will likely be shorter, and we'll probably get more LIs in at once because of it, barring certain major character/plot developments that demand more story/renders.

And also, I don't see how he's being stubborn. You didn't write the story, you don't even know exactly where it's headed, none of us do, and you don't witness the development process, so how can you have a better perspective on the big-picture of it than he does? You're viewing it from a "I want to see more content" perspective, whereas the author, as all good authors do, is viewing it from a "I want to see properly developed content" one.

He told us it needs to be day-by-day for the story initially, because it's supposed to be a hectic time in Guy's life with a lot of events packed in to a short span of time. And let's think about what that means for us: we need to be introduced to the MC, to everything he's planning & doing, to all the characters that will play an important part, to all the plot pieces that will develop, etc., and it needs to happen in a relatively smaller time-frame as compared to later stages of the game just to make better sense (again, from the story's perspective, not from a release perspective). From a gameplay perspective, it needs to happen in a relatively smaller time-frame so the player doesn't get bored or confused in one playthrough.

I don't think he decided to eventually start skipping time because people complained; it's because the story will better allow it as it enters another stage of its development, as the MC enters another, more finalized, stage of relationship with the LIs, and so on. The setup is usually the biggest hump, and it isn't quite finished setting up yet. Once it is, it seems to me things will necessarily go faster, both the story development & the rendering.

I don't know, I see your guys' issues, and I sympathize.. but I think Neon's path creates less problems in the end, just for the sake of the flow of everything. It might flow slower because of it, in terms of releases and frequency of seeing characters; but it flows better. Dev evidently cares more about latter, and good for him. And I'll bet you that when the game is finished (yeah yeah, it might not, w/e), we will see that too and prefer it. And that's what some of us are forgetting I think: we understandably want more and sooner, but we're forgetting that everything he's doing right now is for the sake of the finished product in the end, not our moment-to-moment whims & desires. Too many devs design their VNs around the latter, and it shows in my experience. That's why this one is a breath of fresh air for so many players! :coffee::cool:
 
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Dr.Slime

Dr.Slime

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Nov 15, 2022
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NeonGhosts said:
In Chapter 8, if you turned down Brittani in the loft, and were nice during the photo shoot, she's happier to see you, less nervous, etc. and she flirts a bit by showing off her work uniform.

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Is it a lot? No. But, it's appreciably different than if you were more aggressive with her, and it hints that she'll be warmer to you. You know, like you may want in a romantic relationship. But, she's also not super cold to you if you did take her up on her offer. She just clearly feels a bit awkward about it.

I'm just going to skip over complaints about certain girls getting an outsized amount of time, because here's some other characters that have gotten the same complaint: Nicki, Ashe, Gabby, Viola, Pepper, Risa, Carolina, Madison, and actually literally every character in the game.

As for lol at the shop content, that was a late, unplanned addition in order to give Brittani fans a little content, since we hadn't seen her in a little while, and I figured I could tee up her next appearance. It's not uncommon for me to be working through an update only to realize, "Hey, this character would fit in really well, here.." and then I end up writing and rendering an extra scene. It happened in Chapter 6 with Mason, Chapter 7 with Risa, Chapter 8 with Brittani, and Chapter 9 with Pepper. Then, the schedule slips. But, I don't add these scenes, without thinking they'll benefit the story as a whole.

And it seems like that 'story as a whole' idea is something people keep having trouble with. Things happen in the story.. Because the story needs those things to happen. Risa was, initially, just planned as a foil to Carolina. Fun and free-spirited, to Carolina's uptight and rigid. Then, I realized she could work as a viewpoint character into some of the shady things MC keeps brushing up against. So, she took on some more screentime, to move the plot forward in a more interesting way.

Other characters who were never planned for, but wound up being pretty important: Ashe, Carolina, Brittani, Pepper, Viola, Wren..

I mean, I'm not really sure what to say here. It's a story. Characters show up when they have something to do, and they're not around when they don't. When they don't have interesting things to do, someone else gets center stage for a bit. I just don't get it, honestly. Do people get mad when they're reading A Storm of Swords and they get to a character POV they dislike?

"UGH, FUCK! Fucking Tarly. I'll just skip this one and go to the next Tyrion chapter -- such bullshit!"

I mean, do you want to go check in with Gabby? Okay.
  • mc"Hey Gabby, how are you?"
  • gb"Still mad at you. I'm waiting for a major plot development to occur, which will allow me to forgive you."
  • mc"Oh, cool. I bet we'll do that when I see you in Chapter 10."
  • gb"Bet."
Oh, here's Brittani.
  • mc"Brittani, what's up?"
  • bri"Uh, I just saw you today. I'm currently at work. I assume I'll see you tomorrow, or the next day? To audition for the part? But, it'd be helpful if you knew anyone with a Slavic accent to help me with the role."
  • mc"Wow! Shockingly, I do! I'll just need to see her in Chapter 10, to tee that up."
  • bri"Great, see you after that."

Now, for people who want to complain about the schedule, et al. -- go look at the date this thread launched. March 30th, a bit over two years ago.

Since then I've done: 8,687 images, eight full chapters, a Halloween update, and an April Fool's update. Oh, and I did The Student Loan during that time, which had another 189 images. All of which needed to be written, coded, and playtested, by someone who didn't know how to code or use Daz, before starting this. Add to that juggling my community, trying to navigate through the changing whims of payment processors, having a life, and working my real job, and I think I'm doing okay.

I'm not going to sit here and defend my work ethic, because quite frankly it speaks for itself. I don't like to compare myself to other devs, but there are teams of two or three devs, people who do this for an actual living, who don't put out as much work as I do by myself.

And despite this, I get to deal with people telling me, literally since Chapter One, that the plot branches have clearly spun out of control, and I'll never be able to manage it. Yet somehow I'm still here, putting out releases every four months, and moving the story forward. Two years in! There are TV shows that run for five, six, seven years or more. Fuck, Spider-Man's been published since the 60s.

It's serial storytelling. It takes time.

If you feel you can do better, I make all the Daz files for my characters available in the fanart thread. Have at it! I look forward to playing your much better game.
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NebulousShooter said:
Are you counting renders she physically appears in, because I count as Risa screen time any render related to her scenes?

Prove me wrong that I'm unreasonably displeased with this, I suggest when next update drops to count the perchantage of the total renders her scenes have of the total renders in each update and compare them with other LIs that have had screen time 3 updates in a row. I doubt you will find many other than Nicki(obviously the most important non-MC character in the story) and maybe Ashe.

Let me run it back one more time, because for whatever reason its lost in translation.

  1. she was never supposed to be anything but background fodder so that will forever will be a vote against her from me.
  2. she is now tied to the main plot, so her scenes are mandatory, I can't actually make a choice not to get dragged in her shit, so you see your general argument about the game offering many choices and something for everyone is completely moot in this case, now is it?
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for your first point obviously it will be higher percentage cuz no matter how you look at her , the total render mentioned for her was very low so saying 100 renders more will be almost 30% even when it's like 100 renders it's very insufficient to ask for percent in this case also saying 3 chapters were her renders is this low is barley noticeable .

  • she was never supposed to be anything but background fodder so that will forever will be a vote against her from me.
  • Indeed Neon mentioned this but he also mentioned that a lot of character when writing could be insert into scenes that will help grow the story at first i was "why i'm at drug den all of sudden then" but it let me thinking did Guy really have a problem so far that we could call a problem? everything so far could resolve with a phone call, Brittani with Modeling , Gabby and Madison Library even with her father. him funding left and right a lot of newly open company and people who needed help without issue, but will you call this a story when everything goes to shine ? it will be a dating sim at this point which is not for this game. you could see the situation later on from the point view of Guy who got stuck on this issue. And as i recall Neon so far have an option even for anyone you could love hate friendzone corrupt them.

  • she is now tied to the main plot, so her scenes are mandatory, I can't actually make a choice not to get dragged in her shit, so you see your general argument about the game offering many choices and something for everyone is completely moot in this case, now is it?
  • For this point i think i kinda see your point " why am i dragged into this i didn't sign up for this" but look at it from another view here we will see how will Guy do in this situation he is in now? how will he handle it? will he hate Risa , her family , Lucien ,everyone and break? For those who play good Guy how will this play out for them? for People who manipulate other characters how will they use this Maybe they could work with Lucien.
You see there are options for most , i myself play most paths i want to see after this drug den situation how my option will be.
Maybe i will like Risa? maybe she is manipulated ? Maybe she is also working with Lucien as villain and wants to setup Guy and blackmail him.

The game did ended in situation made a lot confused or waiting on their feet or unhappy, but lets wait and see how it will play out eventually
 
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Machete

Machete

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Apr 7, 2020
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PHIL101-YYouPPHard said:
I do see your point, even though I'm personally not convinced tbh.
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See, but mine is not a point to begin with. I wasn't complaining of anything. I was just answering to NeonGhost's perplexity on why fans complain when they get girl A instead of girl B. But this is just a natural implication of having deployed such a wide cast without keeping it all in one place like other games do. And i was warning him (but i presume he already considered this, otherwise this game will end in the 'abandoned' shelf) that a big cast with a strongly forking story will require and exponetially increasing load of work for each release and he need to be prepared and well planned or it might get overwhelming as it happened to many games.
 
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NebulousShooter

NebulousShooter

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ename144 said:
Things evolve; I doubt Brittani started out as developed as she's become either, yet the game is much stronger for that change.

What I do object to is the way Risa was suddenly thrust into such a prominent position without the proper setup.
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I didn't fall in love with Brittani after the shop scene, I thought she looked cute and that was that, I started liking her after she was dangled in front of me and then taken away, I wouldn't have probably cared that much until the shoot and her mom' short story.

I didn't immediately dislike Risa, I just didn't care about her, but then the more she got pushed onto me the more frustrated I became, reaching the boiling point when I counted 20 renders out of the previews for next update(probably 80% of the total previews at the time) were related to her scenes.

The fact they were small and then became prominent is not my fault, its the game's, so I'll hold it against it until the game gives me the opportunity to drop kick Risa out of Guy's life and reunite with Brittani :Kappa:
 
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Defenestrator.for.traitor

Defenestrator.for.traitor

Forum Fanatic
Oct 10, 2022
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xortor said:
Okay just finished playing the game thus far.
Wow, what a ride!

Quick tier list:
1. Brittani
2. Brittani
3. Ashe
4. Viola
5. Nicki
6. Don't care
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I am not judging but really, Carolina did not make the list? :confused:
  1. Carolina
  2. Viola
  3. Mason
  4. Ashe
  5. Brittani
  6. Gabby
  7. Nicki
  8. Pepper
I don't remember any other option. :unsure:
 
Dr.Slime

Dr.Slime

Active Member
Nov 15, 2022
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xortor said:
Okay just finished playing the game thus far.
Wow, what a ride!

Quick tier list:
1. Brittani
2. Brittani
3. Ashe
4. Viola
5. Nicki
6. Don't care
Click to expand...
Nicki was a rough in episode 1 that many really do hate her there even Neon he mentioned he will rework chapter 1 again after finishing chapter 10 if i recall correctly.
 
Machete

Machete

Engaged Member
Apr 7, 2020
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Dessolos said:
For me it's
  1. Nicki
  2. Ashe
  3. Risa / Brittani tied
  4. Viola
  5. Pepper / Carolina ( probably Carolina but undecided how I feel about her till she gets more updates)
Friend Zone
Gabby
Mason
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Ok, i want to do this too, but slightly differently

1) Highly intrigues me and moves me.
- Mason

2) High in my usual taste
- Gabby
- Viola

3) I would like to see content about
- Gabby's Mom
- The asian counter girl
- Mason ex GF for a threesome

4) Enjoyable in my usual taste
- Risa
- Brittani
- Carolina
- Nicki
- Ashe

5) I don't really care
- Pepper
- Amputee girl
- I think amputee girl has a girlfriend? Her, by the way
- Jacuzzi buff girl
- Comatose drug dealer's girl
- Brittani's mom
- Influencer girl

EDIT:
6) I totally forgot about and i still don't care
- MC's sister
 
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Dessolos

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Jul 25, 2017
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Machete said:
Ok, i want to do this too, but slightly differently

1) Highly intrigues me and moves me.
- Mason

2) High in my usual taste
- Gabby
- Viola

3) I would like to see content about
- Gabby's Mom
- The asian counter girl
- Mason ex GF for a threesome

4) Enjoyable in my usual taste
- Risa
- Brittani
- Carolina
- Nicki
- Ashe

5) I don't really care
- Pepper
- Amputee girl
- I think amputee girl has a girlfriend? Her, by the way
- Jacuzzi buff girl
- Comatose drug dealer's girl
- Brittani's mom
- Influencer girl

6) I totally forgot about and i still don't care
- MC's sister
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I forgot about the counter girl yeah she seemed cute , wouldn't mind her as a side girl or one night stand or something.
I do admit Mason does intrigues me as well but I can't see my self getting involved romantically at all with Mason for 2 reasons. Not my cup of tea and currently how it is id feel id be taking advantage to much of Mason.
 
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SlapE

SlapE

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Dec 4, 2022
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I guess since everyone else is doing it, I may as well too.

1. Nicki

2. Ashe
3. Mason

4. Brittani
5. Viola

Carolina is borderline making my top 5, but we haven't seen enough of her, so maybe in the future she will move up.
The gaps between the rankings is to signify how far ahead certain characters are compared to others. Nicki is easily my #1, meanwhile Ashe and Mason are comfortably in my top 3, way ahead of Brittani and Viola for now at least. Everyone else that's not in my top 5, with the exception of Carolina, aren't even near my top 5.
 
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4.60 star(s) 177 Votes