America first, the Netherlands second?

[Tarasia]

Enjoy

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[MaddRabbit]

It's great, it's true.

 

[nuclearnemo]

Not sure if i should be proud of this as a dutchy...but the video is hilarious

 

[Throwaway13031980]

As another fellow Dutchie:
Although I enjoy the satire it's all way too easy, way too low hanging fruit. I fully support this guys freedom of speech, I do hope it's only meant as satire and not as a political statement. The problem with doing it this way is you can go way too far with what you're saying and then wait for the response. Positive response? Awesome, next time even more negative/over the top. Bad response? ''It was only satire, can't you take a joke?''
It's important to notice the bias in the media from all sides, both left/right and everything in between. Journalists/social commentators on both sides either defend him with too much blind zeal or accuse him with too much blind zeal.
Also, he has won. So instead of spreading more negativity I think it's best to give him a fair chance. At least try, with optimism. Whenever a picture is painted that everything president Trump does is racist/homophobic/transphobic/anti-muslim/all-the-other-phobics as a country the United States will become the Divided States. In the end they will have to try to make something out of it together, not this ''not-my-President'' attitude. He didn't win the popular vote? Guess what, you're not a democracy, you're a federal republic. Your guy/woman can't win all the time. And as president Trump isn't an actual fascist they still have the right to protest peacefully.
To conclude, let's all give president Trump a fair chance whether you like him or not. Please do not wish failure upon him because the country will suffer because of it. I also don't think we're best buddies with them anymore:

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[muttdoggy]

Update. it's getting very very very weird right now. He just signed several executive actions..
1- Start the process of building a wall at the Mexican Border and immediate cut off of all federal funds to cities who do not report illegal immigrants.
2- Immediate authorization of federal agencies to "ease the burden" of the Affordable Care Act ("ObamaCare").
3- You already know of the ban on funding agencies that promote abortion.
4- Immediate authorization of the building of 2 oil pipelines.. the Keystone XL and Dakota Access pipelines.
5- Immediate reversal of a mortgage premium cut enacted by Obama that saved hundreds of dollars per year for middle-class and lower-income families.

In the pipeline (being drafted right now)
1- Immediate cessation of all resettlement of anyone from Syria. Instant 30 day stop of all citizens entering the USA from Iraq, Iran, Syria, Yemen, Sudan, Libya and Somalia even if they're visiting or on vacation. At this time, Egypt, Saudia Arabia, and Jordan are not on the list. This is to give them time to figure out a permanent plan of action regarding immigration and visitors from those countries.
2- The re-opening of CIA "black sites" and the repeal of bans on "enhanced interrogation techniques". Details are being hammered out at the moment.

Make of it what you will.. but for god's sakes do not wish him on your country or anyone elses'.

 

[maximusleroy]

I don't share your doom and gloom view of Trump's recent executive action.
1. A border wall helps both the US and Mexico. Mexico has a similar problem with illegals from Latin America crossing it's southern border in the hopes of being able to get to the US. A stronger border would make such a trip much more uncertain, reducing its appeal.
1b. There is nothing wrong with cutting funding of cities who refuse to uphold the law.
2. Obamacare would have crumbled under its own weight this year even it nothing had been done to repeal it. Trying to keep cost down until it can be repealed and replaced is a sensible thing to do.
3. The ban is only on agencies funding abortions outside the US.
4. Cheap energy is good for everyone. Pipeline are safer and cheaper than railroads which is how oil is currently being transported from Canada/North Dakota.
Warren Buffett own Burlington Northern who own the train tracks that transport this oil and make billions a year transporting it. He was also a major donor to the previous president who stalled the construction of the pipeline. Make your own conclusions.
5. This was a new measure Obama put in place in its last week, knowing Trump would cancel it. Presumably only to cause him bad press.

I won't comment on future executive action for now, I'll leave that for "News" networks.

 

[Throwaway13031980]

Awesome! Actual, informed discussion going on. Noice.

1. Illegal immigration in itself I cannot agree with because it is ILLEGAL immigration. Here in the Netherlands every now and then during our mini refugee crisis over the last few years our government wanted to deport people seeking asylum. Even people who had already lived here for multiple years. Some of these cases became big news which swayed the governments opinion on some of them. What to do with the many illegal immigrants currently living there is an interesting problem. It's not fair to the people who took the long legal route to just pardon all of them. Besides taking the necessary lessons/courses at least makes sure people are in the know about your country's culture, history etc. It (should) help making them actual citizens of your country instead of in a sense still being actual foreigners. I have heard the way to becoming a citizen of the United States at the moment is very convoluted so maybe they could work on that? I think preventing illegal immigration is a good thing. What to do with the many illegal immigrants currently living/having lived there for many years is another issue. Can't blame Trump for this, it does fit his ''America First'' policy. I fully agree with point 1b maximusleroy makes.
2. How hard many, many people (myself included) wanted Obamacare to work in the end it wasn't a succes. Some people have profited (it has helped saving people's lives!) many others either didn't profit or disprofited (higher taxes/higher fee to pay to the insurance company) It had to be reworked or discontinued in my humble opinion. I think any of the Republican candidates would have done this.
3. Abortion is for many a sensitive subject. It would be easy for me to judge since I have never come across it in my own life or with my friends so I'll say this. This is not new, EVERY Republican candidate has reinstituted this policy for EVERY Democratic president who renounced this policy. In a sense, isn't it at least a bit weird that taxpayer's money who condone abortion (each for their own reasons) would be used to fund organisations that promote abortion? Apparently some of the organisations funded weren't that awesome either.
4. There is a lot of stuff going on with the pipelines. Cheap energy, global warming, desecration of Native land (if you even conclude there is such a thing as Native/non-Native land) lots of lobbying, etc. etc. I can't make an informed decision about this so I'll say this: It fits the theme of ''America first'' Especially for a global warming denier.
5. I have not read in to this subject, so nothing from me here.

In the pipeline:

1. America first? I think this is his beginning in his war against as he called it ''foreign hateful ideologies'' Now what could he mean by that? He is of course referencing the terror attacks done by Islamic extremists. To be fair, most terrorist attacks done by muslim extremists is done in the Middle East/Asia, mostly in their own countries which is all kinds of fucked up if you ask me. However, when these attacks take place in the West they are commited by people who either have become radicalised in the countries you mentioned or they are first/second/third generation immigrants from those countries. Rarely do you see stories from moderate muslims committing these acts of violence or from muslims who are not at least influenced by the ideologies flown over from there. How can you tell one from the other? It's a very complex problem. On a smaller scale: I would like to be able to welcome everyone in my house. I do have a lock on my front door however. That's because I live in a world where I'm not able to do this without risking being robbed. I would love for the Netherlands to be able to welcome more refugees. However when I look at our past experiences with taking in too many refugees at once of when I look at how our neighbours in Germany are suffering under their open borders policy I have to wonder if closing the borders or having a ''half-closed'' border policy would be better in the long run.
   
   
2. Which also sort of leads to your second point. I fully condone violence in any shape or form except in the defence of others/yourself. I am a pacifist by heart. I think violence is what people use when they can't convince the other party to come over to their side. However I am a brown belt karate even though I dislike fighting. It's because I realise I do not live in a perfect world. I would like to be able to talk with people about our difference in opinion. Even when their opinion is I deserve a good beating. I will always try to run away from or avoid a fight, I am glad in the knowledge I wouldn't totally suck when I need to DEFEND someone else. I do not like the idea of torturing people at all, if my government would start doing so I would protest them. I can understand why he would allow this to happen. If they get actual true information to stop more terrorist attacks via torture I can understand why they would do so. It would help America by doing so. For the record: I totally DO NOT agree with torture to anyone under any circumstances.

So yeah, even though I do no agree with him on some points I understand his choices from his ''America first'' policy. Which I think is not a weird policy. I think it's good to first get your own shit together before helping others. It helps you being able to help the other better and it helps you being an example for the the you're helping. I think this works both in interpersonal relationships as well as in national/foreign politics.
@muttdoggy, totally not meant as a personal attack or something even though I seem to attack the points made in your post. I'm also just a stranger on the internet who loves to be challenged in my points of view. Plz don't ban me If given the choice I would not have wished him upon the world as the President, I also wouldn't have wished Hillary upon the world as President. Someone on the internet said is quite beautifully: Trump is everything wrong with the American people in person, Hillary is everything wrong with the American government in person. Either way I would have become a shitshow.

I would love to hear all of your thoughts on this!

 

[muttdoggy]

That earlier post is more of stating what's been done and what's coming up. I'm glad there's opinions and everybody's being good about it. Don't worry - no one will be banned for stating an opinion respectfully.
My take...
1- That wall isn't gonna work. What will work is having more eyeballs on the border. There is no substitute for several sets of eyes scanning the same area. In my opinion, the wall is an unnecessary expense when it's more feasible to just maintain the fence so we can see movement on the other side from roving patrol agents stationed along the border. It's cheaper and we have money now to pay for equipment like atvs, trucks, and a training program that includes learning spanish and nonviolent means of capture. It's wiser and smarter to invest in more agents to patrol the border.
2- I agree with the ACA needing to be revised. Keep what works and make sure a working and vetted plan is in place so when any part is repealed, it's instantly replaced with a working part. Repeal and replace ONLY. It makes no sense to force people who had absolutely nothing to do with this go without healthcare just to punish Obama.
3- Of course abortion is a thorny issue. My take is that it should be made available in 3 cases... rape, incest, and when the woman's health is threatened. When that is the case, the poor gal should NOT pay for it. Does it even make sense to make a girl pay for an abortion when she was raped? That's heartless!!! If a gal wants an abortion because she's made a mistake and can't afford the baby, then that's where I'd suggest counseling and abortion isn't an option. Instead, they make an adoption agreement.
4- Oil pipelines have horrible media coverage. Both sides are to blame. I looked into it and the best way for it to go forward and be more accepted is if the oil companies said "OK. Let's do this. Let's draw a contract where "X" percentage of gross income is donated to the affected communities and a small percentage is held in escrow by the states affected in case of any man-made errors." They also need to be very very clear and upfront with their information they put out and to play the part of the good guy and STOP FIGHTING the protestors. That just makes them look like the bad guys.
5- You could say Trump was trapped by that and it made him look bad. All he had to do was get Spicer to explain that it was just enacted by the Obama and he did that so it wouldn't have changed anything. He could say I'm open to better suggestions. But what he did he do instead??? He and Spicer started fighting about the TV viewership and the crowd sizes at the inauguration. Why didn't he wise up and instead discuss his reasons for the executive order? But NOO he had to argue about crowd this and TV that. By focusing on that issue instead of explaining clearly what he's doing, he trapped himself.

Upcoming issues..
1. We already have one of the toughest standards to pass to qualify as a refugee. Most of the refugees that have moved here from Syria are women and children. Very very few men came over. And the ones that do tend to behave and nobody's had issues with them. Honestly, the issues we have are with white people attacking them for getting groceries. Last summer, 2 LARGE white middle-aged men assaulted a tiny Syrian woman and her 2 teenaged sons. They put both of the young boys in the hospital for weeks. One idea that makes sense is a "conditional" visa. If you get investigated for links to terrorism, get arrested for any reason, or transfer money back to your home country that isn't for the purpose of bringing family out, you are GONE right away. There's a more humane way to handle the refugee crisis and a blanket ban is punishing innocent people who have nothing to do with ISIS, Terrorism. All they want is peace and dignity. You don't have much of either in refugee camps.
2- CIA black sites and harsher interrogation techniques?? Why?? Do you even need to go there?? Does he need to one-up Russia?? If he had to it, I'm sure he could do it quietly. BUT!!! I got a better idea - Play Justin Bieber loudly on repeat while flashing images of Bieber rubbing himself on TV?? If I was a terrorist, I'd be screaming "I GIVE UP!!! AHHH!!!"

That the dog's view of the world, folks!!!

 

[Stroopwafel]

As long he doesn't touch my stroopwafel, all is good!

 

[Throwaway13031980]

Once again, I will try to state the difference between my own opinion and why I think Trump thinks his decisions were the right one.

1. The wall. I don't know what will work better, a giant wall or stricter border patrol. I've seen this documentary on Netflix I think that's on ''vigilante border patrol'' So basically people who volunteer to patrol the border. What I understood from their experiences is that the border is very leak and people who want to can slip in quite easily. That seems a problem. One could try to solve this problem with many different options. Building a giant wall might not be the best. It might turn out to be the best. I think it will at least create some jobs which is a good thing for America right now and it might help border patrol ta have a better overview. The people smuggling drugs or smuggling people will find another way to cross the border even if the wall comes there. It was one of his main points so I'm not surprised. I don't think he can make the Mexicans pay for it.
   
   
2. The ACA. I think taking only the working parts and rework the rest would not work. These things have a tendency to become a whole lot more bureaucratic/convoluted than practical, especially when you rework them. I don't think he's doing this to punish Obama, people who voted for him knew this was one of his points. I do not think it was to spite Obama, I think who has done this because the people voting for him wanted him to do this (or at least partially)
   
   
3. While I agree with your points made here, I do not think this is about whether or not abortion is bad. He's not taking steps to make sure abortion becomes punishable by law in the States. This was about government funding going to organisations that promote abortion. I pay my taxes. If I found out that part of my tax money went to organisations that do things I fundamentally disagree with I would not be pleased at all. That's what I think this was about. It would be quite a surprise if Trump became the first Republican president to not reinstitute the Mexico City policy.
   
   
4. If the oil companies were to behave as you suggest, excellent. I unfortunately don't think thats going to happen because that would require: -Time -Money -For them to acknowledge they are wrong in doing this. Since the want to make a profit the time and money will be an issue, if they think they were wrong in doing this they would not be doing it. The government has done some weird stuff regarding the protest(ers) so your further suggestions would be beneficial to all parties I think.
   
   
5. The whole Spicer/alternative facts inauguration thing was weird. The way too violent protests were weird. The way the media outlets biased the information regarding the crowd sizes was weird. Basically everything that day was weird. Having used different sources of information from different views of the political spectrum that's all I can conclude. But that's another point. If indeed he did this because Obama implemented this to screw over Trump he should have said so, it might have even given him some good publicity.
   
   
6. (I'm just going to keep on counting) I do condone anyone for using violence ESPECIALLY against those weaker than they are. Having seen some of the work of the media outlets in the State I can sort of understand why they would attack people looking Middle Eastern. All they hear from the Middle East is Isis, Al-Qaeda and terrorism. It's good to hear that the refugees coming over are behaving and following your laws.
   
   I have to admit some of my own bias in this point since here in Europe during the refugee crisis last year(s) there has been almost nothing but trouble. Look at Sweden, look at Germany. Rapes, sexual assaults, murders by foreigners have all gone up exponentially. People being harassed, made feel unsafe and there is almost no justice for the victims. Police/the justice system is almost too afraid to do anything out of fear of being called racist/islamophobic. When they do get judged at all they get very light sentences. Excuses given like ''they did not know it's not okay to grope women/rape little boys here'' Despicable. This is our experience with the refugees. Able-bodied men who pretend to be teens, refuse to live according to our cultures and our laws, a lot of them are even just economic refugees. Is it fair to punish the actual war refugees by tightening your borders? No it is not. But as a government I believe you have a responsibility to your own people first. Trump thinks he can protect the American people better this way and in a way I agree with him. This way it will become more difficult for people planning attacks to enter the country.
   
   
7. I don't think is is about one-upping Russia. I think it's to send a clear message. Obama promised to close Guantanamo Bay. He was opposed herein by the Republicans so that didn't work out. I think it did paint a picture of Obama is being compassionate. Trump on the other hand sends a clear message of being ruthless. ''Instead of closing our most well known torture camp I will go even further.'' That is a better message to scare off potential terrorists I think.

@Stroopwafel I don't think you have to be afraid. I saw a dutch bakery food truck in a Lucifer episode, it had stuff like oliebollen and boterham hagelslag. Apparently our food this pretty well in certain parts of the States.
Once again, I'm very pleased to be able to have this conversation with you all.

 

[Throwaway13031980]

@muttdoggy
''We are quite concerned about the experience of one of our students upon returning to the United States from Sudan late Friday. This graduate student, a legal permanent resident of the United States, was detained for several hours at Kennedy International Airport, and handcuffed briefly, upon trying to return from a research trip. While thankfully she was released, we are enormously concerned about the anguish this episode caused our student and her family, and what it may suggest for others in similar situations. An unfortunate consequence of the new policy appears to be that students and scholars from designated countries are, for the moment, effectively detainees in this country.''

From a letter sent out to all Stanford university students, to underline the point you made about it being a bad idea to generalise everyone because they come from a country where Islamic terrorism presides.

 

[muttdoggy]

Because of the executive order signed yesterday....
Even if you have a legal green card and are legally a resident, you will be detained upon returning to the USA from ANY country (even Canada). Your fate will be decided on a case-by-case basis so even if you're legally here and followed all the laws, you can still be expelled. All because you were born in a Muslim country in the Middle East.
This doesn't feel like the USA I used to know anymore.
This doesn't feel like a country that promotes democracy or freedom anymore.
I'm ashamed that was drafted and signed.

To make matters worse, Trump directly re-shuffled and specifically ordered a white supremacist called Stephen Bannon to be installed on the National Security Council with direct input into national security and foreign policy concerns.
A known White Supremacist who is an "Alt-Right" leader with his finger on Middle Eastern matters?

 

[Jack-O]

U.S. getting what they deserve. Too many took everything they had for granted and did nothing to prevent all this from happening. Maybe time for the U.S. to burn itself "bigly"? This is what you get when too many are uneducated and scared of everything unknown/new, because of it.

 

[Silver]

Update. it's getting very very very weird right now. He just signed several executive actions..
1- Start the process of building a wall at the Mexican Border and immediate cut off of all federal funds to cities who do not report illegal immigrants.
2- Immediate authorization of federal agencies to "ease the burden" of the Affordable Care Act ("ObamaCare").
3- You already know of the ban on funding agencies that promote abortion.
4- Immediate authorization of the building of 2 oil pipelines.. the Keystone XL and Dakota Access pipelines.
5- Immediate reversal of a mortgage premium cut enacted by Obama that saved hundreds of dollars per year for middle-class and lower-income families.

In the pipeline (being drafted right now)
1- Immediate cessation of all resettlement of anyone from Syria. Instant 30 day stop of all citizens entering the USA from Iraq, Iran, Syria, Yemen, Sudan, Libya and Somalia even if they're visiting or on vacation. At this time, Egypt, Saudia Arabia, and Jordan are not on the list. This is to give them time to figure out a permanent plan of action regarding immigration and visitors from those countries.
2- The re-opening of CIA "black sites" and the repeal of bans on "enhanced interrogation techniques". Details are being hammered out at the moment.

Make of it what you will.. but for god's sakes do not wish him on your country or anyone elses'.

I think the 3 option is alright. I am personally against abortion too, but I don't like the fact how he doesn't allow muslim migrants. at least their background should be checked before taking in, not banning altogether.

 

[muttdoggy]

The federal judges are joining together in blocking Trump's executive order regarding the Muslim ban. Honestly, I've NEVER seen this much backlash by judges or politicians against an executive order. Even my state, which supported Trump by 80%, is planning to take action against that executive order. We've already got rallies planned and the local legislators are reassuring local refugees that we will not take action against them and if they go on vacation, they will be able to come home no matter what.

 

[Silver]

The federal judges are joining together in blocking Trump's executive order regarding the Muslim ban. Honestly, I've NEVER seen this much backlash by judges or politicians against an executive order. Even my state, which supported Trump by 80%, is planning to take action against that executive order. We've already got rallies planned and the local legislators are reassuring local refugees that we will not take action against them and if they go on vacation, they will be able to come home no matter what.

I read about this. I think some media falsely reports the news. according to telegraph, it's not a muslim ban, but a ban on people who immigrate from certain high risking middle eastern countries, and even among them only syrians are banned from entering indefinitely, the rest ban is only for few months. As I read the rest of the countries are Iran, Iraq, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Syria and Yemen. I think it makes sense, all these countries are unstable, full of extremists. I know not all the immigrants are extremists, there are a lot of innocent people too, perhaps that may be why he stated,
“until our country's representatives can figure out what is going on.”
implying until proper measurements are implemented.

 

[Jack-O]

I read about this. I think some media falsely reports the news. according to telegraph, it's not a muslim ban, but a ban on people who immigrate from certain high risking middle eastern countries, and even among them only syrians are banned from entering indefinitely, the rest ban is only for few months. As I read the rest of the countries are Iran, Iraq, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Syria and Yemen. I think it makes sense, all these countries are unstable, full of extremists. I know not all the immigrants are extremists, there are a lot of innocent people too, perhaps that may be why he stated,
“until our country's representatives can figure out what is going on.”
implying until proper measurements are implemented.

A) That's assuming it will end after a "few" months. Who's going to tell? Who's going to make that decision? And based on what exactly? Steve Bannen? I mean... All heads of security have been gagged already.
B) People who have been "vetted" (and already got their greencard), are still being held up in airports. Hell, carriers don't even dare to take them on board. They're afraid their planes aren't allowed to land with them on board!
C) To make an exception for christians, is against the law. And afaIk...? Moment a president takes the oath of office, he/she swears to uphold and protect the nation AND it's laws. And his decree is actually in violation with an amendment all U.S. laws are based upon. It's in violation with the first amendment!

 

[Silver]

A) That's assuming it will end after a "few" months. Who's going to tell? Who's going to make that decision? And based on what exactly? Steve Bannen? I mean... All heads of security have been gagged already.
B) People who have been "vetted" (and already got their greencard), are still being held up in airports. Hell, carriers don't even dare to take them on board. They're afraid their planes aren't allowed to land with them on board!
C) To make an exception for christians, is against the law. And afaIk...? Moment a president takes the oath of office, he/she swears to uphold and protect the nation AND it's laws. And his decree is actually in violation with an amendment all U.S. laws are based upon. It's in violation with the first amendment!

the countries I stated earlier are full of extremists. it's true there are good people among them too, but it's difficult to figure it out without having a proper mechanism, most of so called extremists who make/made problems in europe actually came from aforesaid countries. the thing is no one dares to implement such a mechanism due to the political correctness. politicians are scared of being labeled as racists. so they do nothing, and the cycle continues, and when something went wrong, post pray for france, pray for gays, pray for christians etc.. praying does nothing, someone has to step up and do something otherwise, the west will be filled with extremists. tell me what france has done to stop extremists? what germany has done to stop extremists? what sweden has done to extremists? almost nothing. the rape rate in sweden is sky high, and no go zones where no cop is even allowed to enter. the problem is not all Muslims, the problem is most of wahhabists, but it's difficult to identity them because they are often mixed up with rest of the muslims. so the rest of muslims are actually victims of them too. in fact they are killed more than christians. so I believe there has to be a proper mechanism to filter out extremists from good people when taking people from high risking countries. and until such a mechanism is implemented, it's better to impose a temporary ban. It will not just save natives, but also innocent muslims from extremists. because these extremists have tremendous amount of power and funds, and they can use their power on muslim communities to turn the issued innocent youth into extremists.

 

[Tarasia]

Well the discussion and all was informative, but i wanted it to be about the Netherlands. The Netherlands second, well... we are first with the video. Cause more and more countries seem to be popping in due to the succes of the video. Here are the ones i found. PS. I still think that our Dutch one is the better one out there, but if i have to pick: The German one is a close second.






PS. Just keep the polite discussion going. I will be dropping new ones in if i find them.

 

[muttdoggy]

What about Canada first, America second? I could live with that!!!
Canada could lead America by the nose... or the ear. Their choice!! LOL