Why are so many games on here so rapey? [Poll]

[recreation]

But then there are things like the interaction between a male a female character that are just so far off it feels like the author is a 10 year old virgin and never went on a date in his life and the closest interaction he had with a real woman was maybe his family and looking at his dads porn.

The possibility is clearly there
Games are still games and there are things that only happen in games and are widely excepted (medipacks/auto-heal anyone?), but I always try to make at least some reasonable explanations and honestly, that's not always easy. Sometimes it takes a while and a lot of rewriting until you finally hit the nail on the head and sometimes you simply have to make smaller sacrifices to realism to get the scene going the way you want it to. I can understand that not everybody is willing to do this.

 

[polywog]

I've seen several games, and VN on here, that are the opposite of rapey. Stories with a married couple, and it plays like they just met and work towards having sex for the first time even though they have children together.

 

[grtrader]

The possibility is clearly there
Games are still games and there are things that only happen in games and are widely excepted (medipacks/auto-heal anyone?), but I always try to make at least some reasonable explanations and honestly, that's not always easy. Sometimes it takes a while and a lot of rewriting until you finally hit the nail on the head and sometimes you simply have to make smaller sacrifices to realism to get the scene going the way you want it to. I can understand that not everybody is willing to do this.

For me I can look at life experience for a tremendous amount.
But if you look at any situation you have to consider what would it take for the character to do that action.
Then create the events that lead to that predicament.

Lets take the classic landlord wants tenant to pay with sex. Most people in RL would call the cops, talk to friends, look for another place... So you need to create a situation where the person is isolated and doesn't feel she can go to the authorities and doesn't have any real other options. Such as it could be the only apartment complex in town they can afford. You could even argue that they aren't in trouble with LE but it would take months for courts to rule and what mean time they are going to be homeless. They have no one to rely on because they are new to the area.

 

[recreation]

For me I can look at life experience for a tremendous amount.
But if you look at any situation you have to consider what would it take for the character to do that action.
Then create the events that lead to that predicament.

Lets take the classic landlord wants tenant to pay with sex. Most people in RL would call the cops, talk to friends, look for another place... So you need to create a situation where the person is isolated and doesn't feel she can go to the authorities and doesn't have any real other options. Such as it could be the only apartment complex in town they can afford. You could even argue that they aren't in trouble with LE but it would take months for courts to rule and what mean time they are going to be homeless. They have no one to rely on because they are new to the area.

Yeah you can always find some more or less realistic reasons. But don't think it's that easy. Sometimes you have great idea, write it down, and the next time you read it, you realize how crappy it actually is. Some devs might think "Naah, whatever, crappy content is still content" and just go on, but that's lazy if you ask me. You wouldn't believe how many times I rewrote some parts of the story, sometimes just changed some words because it didn't sound right. It's heavily time consuming, but judging by the feedback I get, it's worth it.

 

[GuyFreely]

For me I can look at life experience for a tremendous amount.
But if you look at any situation you have to consider what would it take for the character to do that action.
Then create the events that lead to that predicament.

Lets take the classic landlord wants tenant to pay with sex. Most people in RL would call the cops, talk to friends, look for another place... So you need to create a situation where the person is isolated and doesn't feel she can go to the authorities and doesn't have any real other options. Such as it could be the only apartment complex in town they can afford. You could even argue that they aren't in trouble with LE but it would take months for courts to rule and what mean time they are going to be homeless. They have no one to rely on because they are new to the area.

That situation has context though. An abuse of power story that lines up with "rapey" gameplay. What puts me off is when it's a more romantic story. Maybe you are buying gifts and going on dates, etc. Then the MC decides to drug the girl and have sex with her while she's passed out. There is definitely a way to get from A to B, even in the scenario I'm describing. However, it's usually just "and now this is happening." If the MC is just going to rape the girl, don't bother with the lovey dovey bit. Sure, you could have an MC that lowers a girl's defenses by pretending to be nice then becomes a monster, that would work. But it seems like a lot of the VNs are about nice guy rapists. I bought you flowers and made you breakfast, but I also groped you and jizzed on you while you slept. Pick a side.

 

[215303j]

I'm a quite surprised to see "rape fantasy" being ahead in the poll.
I just assume it's due to people misreading / misunderstanding the question with regards to the MC being a "normal .

You cannot argue that you are trying to romance your young "roommate" but still find it necessary to molest / rape her while she's sleeping. That's complete bullshit. Sleep rape is not romance. Nor does it fulfill the rape (powerplay) fetish, because there is no actual resistance.

Coercion and mind control are a bit of a grey area I guess. In the end, also normal people can be corruptible. A customs officer with a quite low salary being offered a substantial amount of cash to look the other way is similar in a lot of ways to frustrated 40 year old bachelor who can't get laid normally but is suddenly confronted with a dependent secretary. Or a 20 year old nerd who discovers a magic mind control pill. It still needs to fit the story, but a MC does not always need to be a "villain".

Classic rape is a clear thing, there is no grey area.

 

[obibobi]

I'm a quite surprised to see "rape fantasy" being ahead in the poll.
I just assume it's due to people misreading / misunderstanding the question with regards to the MC being a "normal .

because the best option wasn't there.

being forceful

On a warm spring day, a man could stand up from his desk, rip his shirt off, go run into the woods, encounter a young attractive woman hiking, dripping with sweat he slowly walks towards as she's paralyzed with fear, takes her in his arms and has his way with her and on a primal level they both could love it. But humans are complicated and we have all sorts of complicated thoughts and social obligations that other animals don't even comprehend.

Sex games and romantic novels can play to this without needing to worry about all that. It all works out, no one's feelings get hurt, no unwanted children, if she gets pregnant she's happy, both participants are physically and emotionally attracted to each other.

 

[GuyFreely]

because the best option wasn't there.

being forceful

On a warm spring day, a man could stand up from his desk, rip his shirt off, go run into the woods, encounter a young attractive woman hiking, dripping with sweat he slowly walks towards as she's paralyzed with fear, takes her in his arms and has his way with her and on a primal level they both could love it. But humans are complicated and we have all sorts of complicated thoughts and social obligations that other animals don't even comprehend.

Sex games and romantic novels can play to this without needing to worry about all that. It all works out, no one's feelings get hurt, no unwanted children, if she gets pregnant she's happy, both participants are physically and emotionally attracted to each other.

I think that's a long route to something that still falls into rape fantasy. I think rape fantasy covers anything that isn't strictly consensual and has little to no consequences. You don't get arrested, the woman loves it, etc. The scenario you're describing reminds of a werwolf tale, but instead of killing villagers, he has sex with them. It could be done in a way that's enjoyable. Again, I fully support games that implement rape fantasy in various forms. But just embrace it. Don't act like drugging women is courtship or that jerking off on them in their sleep is loving. I think devs want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to have rapey content, but tell a supposed love story. Again, even that is not impossible, but it would take extra effort in the writing department to handle the situation in a vaguely reasonable way which they almost never do.

 

[khumak]

First, I'm mostly concerned with male protagonist rape scenarios. I think female protagonist rape is more often tied to theme, if that makes any sense. I'm not saying it's better, but it's a bit different.

Second, let's be clear what rape is (just in case). This includes any non-consensual sexual activity including, but not limited to:
"Classic": She says 'no' and you say 'yes.' Can include the victim being restrained against her will.
Unconscious: She can't say no, but she also can't say yes. This includes night time visits and drugging the victim.
Mind Control: She said yes, but only because some outside force is influencing her. Mind control, aphrodisiacs, pheromones, etc. This is often typified by the female being either unaware of what happened or even angry or regretful about what happened.
Coercion: Have sex or else. She said yes, because she was threatened.

I think people might have different ideas about what constitutes consent and also about what constitutes rape (regardless what the legal definition might be). For instance using some of the "affirmative consent" rules I've seen people spouting almost everyone who has sex is a rapist (including most women). I think a lot of the content out there draws the line at the use of force. Basically "no means yes" unless she punches you in the face as well or whatever. There's also plenty of people who like it rough. There's a reason people came up with the idea of "safe words" for sex where no really does mean yes and chocking, slapping, etc is fine unless it goes to far and they say the safe word. I also think a lot of guys like the power/domination aspect. No idea how many women like that or the submissive/loss of control aspect if they're on the receiving end.

Usually there is some indication that the person on the receiving end eventually submits or decides they like it unless the dev really did mean it to be a rape scene. In my case, I like rough scenes and coercion, corruption, blackmail, etc. I'm not a big fan of rape scenes where force is used and the person onn the receiving end doesn't like it at any point during the process. About the only exception I can think of would maybe be a scene where the person on the receiving end is the bad guy/girl and the rape scene is them getting what's coming to them at the end or something so it feels like it's deserved.

Anyway just my 2 cents.

 

[GuyFreely]

I think people might have different ideas about what constitutes consent and also about what constitutes rape (regardless what the legal definition might be). For instance using some of the "affirmative consent" rules I've seen people spouting almost everyone who has sex is a rapist (including most women). I think a lot of the content out there draws the line at the use of force. Basically "no means yes" unless she punches you in the face as well or whatever. There's also plenty of people who like it rough. There's a reason people came up with the idea of "safe words" for sex where no really does mean yes and chocking, slapping, etc is fine unless it goes to far and they say the safe word. I also think a lot of guys like the power/domination aspect. No idea how many women like that or the submissive/loss of control aspect if they're on the receiving end.

Usually there is some indication that the person on the receiving end eventually submits or decides they like it unless the dev really did mean it to be a rape scene. In my case, I like rough scenes and coercion, corruption, blackmail, etc. I'm not a big fan of rape scenes where force is used and the person onn the receiving end doesn't like it at any point during the process. About the only exception I can think of would maybe be a scene where the person on the receiving end is the bad guy/girl and the rape scene is them getting what's coming to them at the end or something so it feels like it's deserved.

Anyway just my 2 cents.

Those are valid points and they can be used contextually. By that I mean you establish that the person in question "likes it rough" even if they won't openly admit it. That their resistance is something of a facade. Again, you need to communicate that to the player in some way. The trope most often used is that the woman (usually) didn't want the sex, but once it got started she enjoyed it. Which is fair enough in an erotic fantasy setting. If a person is unconscious, however, they can't really offer an opinion one way or the other. Again, I'm not strictly against a scenario where one of the people is unconscious as long as it's handled appropriately.

 

[215303j]

Again, I fully support games that implement rape fantasy in various forms. But just embrace it. Don't act like drugging women is courtship or that jerking off on them in their sleep is loving.

This!

I'm not a big fan of rape scenes where force is used and the person onn the receiving end doesn't like it at any point during the process.

Actually it seems that one of the biggest trauma's that rape survivors have is the realisation that they actually became wet or even came during the rape. It's like their bodies betrayed them. This does, however, definately NOT imply consent! Quite the contrary, it's just a physical reaction for the most part. And if she actually did become mentally excited I can imagine that it becomes even worse due to the conflicting emotions.

 

[khumak]

Actually it seems that one of the biggest trauma's that rape survivors have is the realisation that they actually became wet or even came during the rape. It's like their bodies betrayed them. This does, however, definately NOT imply consent! Quite the contrary, it's just a physical reaction for the most part. And if she actually did become mentally excited I can imagine that it becomes even worse due to the conflicting emotions.

Well the creeper/sleep sex stuff is actually more popular than I would have thought. I'm guessing it's sort of an extension of the voyeurism thing that most people do get something out of. I've been surprised by how many people have asked me to add some to my mod (creeper stuff I mean, voyeurism is a no brainer). I don't get the scenes where she can sleep through actually being fucked unless she's heavily sedated though. I guess some people are into that as well though. I also suspect it's more of a guy thing. Can't imagine many women getting off on the idea of falling asleep and waking up with someone's cock in their ass or whatever.

As for the rape scenes, most of the rapey scenes I see in games are more along the lines of the MC overcoming some "token resistance" from the woman before she decides she likes it rather than the more hard core option of forcing her the whole way through. Then again I may just be avoiding the more hard core rape games.

 

[obibobi]

Well the creeper/sleep sex stuff is actually more popular than I would have thought. I'm guessing it's sort of an extension of the voyeurism thing that most people do get something out of. I've been surprised by how many people have asked me to add some to my mod (creeper stuff I mean, voyeurism is a no brainer). I don't get the scenes where she can sleep through actually being fucked unless she's heavily sedated though. I guess some people are into that as well though. I also suspect it's more of a guy thing. Can't imagine many women getting off on the idea of falling asleep and waking up with someone's cock in their ass or whatever.

As for the rape scenes, most of the rapey scenes I see in games are more along the lines of the MC overcoming some "token resistance" from the woman before she decides she likes it rather than the more hard core option of forcing her the whole way through. Then again I may just be avoiding the more hard core rape games.

You say that but getting eaten is a popular enough fetish among women, I assume it's related to some sort of sexual thrill related to being prey. So you'd be surprised. Lets say a woman has housemates, one looks like Jonah Hill, the other Henry Cavill, she would feel sick at the idea of the former playing with her as she slept but may fantasize about the latter.

But I think we forget one really important thing, we don't really need to care about what turns women when writing these stories anymore than girls need to care whether 50 Shades turns men on.

 

[Carpe Stultus]

Why do dev's make rapey games?

There are several possible reasons for it.

1. Its their own fantasy and they make a game about it.
2. Someone came up with the idea and the dev implemented it.
3. The dev thinks its what he has to do to attract patrons, like many dev's do incest because it attracts a big audience.

I wouldn't say that it has necessarily something to do with it that they don't know how to treat women, i won't rule it out for some, it can just be something that turns them on in a fantasy setting. The important part is that the dev and the players understand that it is a fantasy setting and that they shouldn't treat a woman like this without her consent...which is obviously only possible in role play.

 

[grtrader]

That situation has context though. An abuse of power story that lines up with "rapey" gameplay. What puts me off is when it's a more romantic story. Maybe you are buying gifts and going on dates, etc. Then the MC decides to drug the girl and have sex with her while she's passed out. There is definitely a way to get from A to B, even in the scenario I'm describing. However, it's usually just "and now this is happening." If the MC is just going to rape the girl, don't bother with the lovey dovey bit. Sure, you could have an MC that lowers a girl's defenses by pretending to be nice then becomes a monster, that would work. But it seems like a lot of the VNs are about nice guy rapists. I bought you flowers and made you breakfast, but I also groped you and jizzed on you while you slept. Pick a side.

I get your point I think a lot of it has to do with various issues I discussed in other posts. The authors own experience or lack there of in life along with what he seen read and so on. Couple that with audience impatience and maturity (not talking age) talking mental maturity.

But does stuff like what you don't like happen. I've known of a few incidents and usually the guy thought things were progressing to slow and was impatient with the woman or felt she was a tease.

 

[grtrader]

This!


Actually it seems that one of the biggest trauma's that rape survivors have is the realisation that they actually became wet or even came during the rape. It's like their bodies betrayed them. This does, however, definately NOT imply consent! Quite the contrary, it's just a physical reaction for the most part. And if she actually did become mentally excited I can imagine that it becomes even worse due to the conflicting emotions.

True, physiological response of the woman's body don't indicate they liked it or consented. They are autonomic responses.

 

[grtrader]

My real life view on rape is probably more strict than most people.

Consider most places have laws to protect children/students from people in authority over them manipulating them into sexual relationships.
The fact is adults aren't really any less vulnerable. Does a single day and graduating from school make a person any smarter or wiser? Hell no. Nor does turning from age 17 and 364 days to age 18 make you any more capable.

The other aspect our laws haven't really caught up on is that there are youth that prey on adults even purposely game and use the system to do so. There are something like 40,000 men in jail for picking up on a female at a bar who was drinking appeared to be an adult even had an ID indicating they were older than they were. Yet, the way the laws are written to protect minors its next to impossible to defend against that situation because you can't bring it up in court. I found that out dealing with custody issues. My X started dating a registered offender. I didn't like this guy being around my son. That was basically how he got busted. But besides that he had other issues alcoholism. So when I caught my wife violating the TRO I nailed her on it and then turned him in for parole violation. Which got him away from her 6 months giving her time to realize what a pile of shit he was.

Back to manipulation. My personal opinion is that if you manipulate someone via any means that puts the control out side of them then its rape. Such as if you create a situation to intentionally compromise them and then they aren't left with any choices that is just as much rape as any other means.

We have laws regarding other stuff in that regard if you compromise a person to the point they feel they are forced to commit a crime or it leads to a crime being committed and lets say someone dies you can actually be charged with bring about that person's death and a lot more. What I am saying is that same method or standard of guilt should be applied to rape as well.

They already do it in a limited number of situations for example if you drop a woman off in a bad part of town and she is drunk and doesn't have the means to get hold of someone or her car there and something happens like she gets raped or murdered you can get charged in that.

If they did that fully it would reduce a hell of a lot of bad shit that goes on especially if they attached a death penalty to it.

 

[megaplayboy10k]

There used to be something called "false pretenses rape". That is, if you lied and told a woman you were a doctor who wanted to examine her, or you were going to marry her, and she consented to sexual activity under such fraudulent circumstances, it was an act of rape, because had she known the truth she wouldn't have consented to it.
If you applied that standard to these games almost all male main characters would be pretty rapey.

 

[khumak]

There used to be something called "false pretenses rape". That is, if you lied and told a woman you were a doctor who wanted to examine her, or you were going to marry her, and she consented to sexual activity under such fraudulent circumstances, it was an act of rape, because had she known the truth she wouldn't have consented to it.
If you applied that standard to these games almost all male main characters would be pretty rapey.

Some permutations of different definitions of consent can be like that too. For instance, if being intoxicated means you can't consent then if a man and a woman both have a few drinks and then have sex then they're both rapists. Doesn't matter what else happened. If the guy forced her does that mean she's only a rapist x1 and he's a rapist x2? Or if affirmative consent means you have to repeatedly get verbal consent for every sex act on a constant basis then 2 people who just want to have a nice quick fuck without saying anything beyond a few grunts and moans are both rapists. And so on...

 

[GuyFreely]

I mean we can certainly argue about the definition of rape or rapey, but really I started this thread to talk about devs taking unnecessary shortcuts to sex that go against theme. I think my main issue is when something that can be deemed rapey shows up in an otherwise romantic relationship (without being addressed). To a lesser extent the complete lack of acknowledgment that something was rapey. If just a little bit of effort was spent on writing, it would be less jarring.