"You are the MC" games-How much First Person is too much First Person?

[FranceToast]

I want to make a game where the player is the MC, and while it seemed obvious at first, there are a lot of nuances involved, not just in terms of story building and the Omniscient Narrator, but also just practical concerns (rendering scenes)

1) Do you see the MC in 3rd person or all First Person POV?
a) FPPOV: Just his hands and uh...body parts in 3rd person (DmD, DoD, Babysitter) Just noticed in Acting Lessons we get the MC's chin in a close hug shot.
b) Mostly FPOV, but sex is 3rd person model (Man of the House)
c) Mostly 3rd person (Babysitter-although a lot of dialogue is in FPPOV)

Guessing a lot of this is driven by the artist's skill with staging/framing scenes. I can't relate personally to being the kid 3D model in MoTH, but do love how the rest of the game is framed as a FPPOV otherwise.

2) Do you read the MC's internal thoughts?
Almost every game has this I think? I like how Depraved Awakenings uses the weary detective talking to himself approach. I don't like games that put tons of "wow I can see her nipples through that dress!" thoughts into the game-isn't that what the Daz3D show nipple render is for? I just relate much less to MCs who have internal thoughts that comment on every scene, as they aren't *my* thoughts.

3) Do you see the other characters' internal thoughts?
This is a big one-I understand why it is there, but it also takes me out of the game somewhat. I like how Acting Lessons has the little "Melissa likes that" or "Liam will remember that" hints. I like how Man of the House conveys this through physical expressions (and email diaries) instead of thought bubbles.

4) Do you witness scenes of other characters where the MC is not physically present?
Conversations between two characters outside of the MC's presence, i.e. the Daughter and Elena in DmD, Elena and the other friend in DmD, etc...Acting Lessons also has this-both in Flashbacks (which I like) and in just conversations (there is one scene between Megan and Melissa that reveals to the player how they feel about the MC-which is moving, but then how are you, as the MC, supposed to pretend you don't know?)

It is the Omniscient Narrator Approach, which is fine, but it also makes my decisions quite different if I know what the other characters are actually doing/thinking behind my back.


I know it is easy to stand outside of the process and criticize why things aren't made exactly how I want them to be, LOL., and I'm sure making my own game will bury me in humility and doubt. But I am curious how other devs approached these issues (or didn't care about them), and how players feel about them (or don't care about them)


(This thread was influenced by reading this amazing

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- these thoughts are not 'Tropes', but they are integral to how I enjoy a game)

 

[Hadley]

1) For me: I want it as Immersive as possible, so you should pretty much never see the MC in 3rd Person.

2) I don't like the cheap creppy thoughts some Games use but if they are written well its not too bad.

3) I don't like it if you can read other Characters thoughts unless it makes some sense within the Story.

4) It depends, in general I want to play my MC only but if its a Scene that gives you some insight on a Character to use later on - it could be somewhat useful if its not mentioned in the Dialogue.

 

[baneini]

I see games as stories where I experience someone else's life. After that everything is just technical details of how to tell a story, do you use the omniscient narrator or not, show other peoples thoughts or don't, etc. You can show scenes of other characters besides mc if you feel it can add to the narrative in setting up a future plot point or something.
For the porn parts I absolutely despise FPPOV, its godawful. Who wants to see giant close up of a vagina exactly? Gross.

When devs put in faceless mc, mandate the player to decide the mc's name and use first person I'll have to come to the conclusion I'm not being told a story which means that game doesn't exist.

 

[N1K17Y]

1: mostly 1st person, but if you use 3rd person dont show face.
2: unless its related to the plot (like "X told me to stop by her place"). if its like "damn what awesome boobs" then i hate it
3: no i hate it (unless its explained by the plot, eg you have supernatural powers allowing you to read their thoughts. otherwise it feels like cheating, especially in games where choices matter and if you push things too fast there are negative concequences.
4: same as 3rd, even more valid here.

 

[inkalicious]

I'm running a small poll , crowdsourcing what players would like to see in a game. The majority are voting for:

• A mix of 1st & 3rd person PoV
• Don't see the MCs face

Personally I've found that 1st person PoV is limiting in terms of visuals, and a pain in production terms. However I decided to use it exclusively, as it suited the VN I'm producing.
I think that's a driver for all of these decisions, does it best support and propel the story?

My preferences would be:

1. A mix of 1st & 3rd PoV (can bring its own problems in hiding the MCs face)
2. Very little dialogue and internal thoughts (especially heavy exposition)
3. I'm not a fan of this, as it's usually an excuse for exposition. However, if done correctly, it could support the story (similar to point 4 below)
4. I think this works in the more dramatic/romantic stories. Where the larger story requires depth or movement, without the MC being present. I think the VNs you referenced avoid choices being linked to info you've obtained in this way (or I hope they do)

I'd also take my thoughts on points 2-3 with a pinch of salt, as I prefer emotion and intent to be inferred from limited dialogue or small visual cues. Which obviously can be missed if you're just clicking till a breast appears.

Good luck!

 

[FranceToast]

I'm running a small poll , crowdsourcing what players would like to see in a game. The majority are voting for:

• A mix of 1st & 3rd person PoV
• Don't see the MCs face

Personally I've found that 1st person PoV is limiting in terms of visuals, and a pain in production terms. However I decided to use it exclusively, as it suited the VN I'm producing.
I think that's a driver for all of these decisions, does it best support and propel the story?

My preferences would be:

1. A mix of 1st & 3rd PoV (can bring its own problems in hiding the MCs face)
2. Very little dialogue and internal thoughts (especially heavy exposition)
3. I'm not a fan of this, as it's usually an excuse for exposition. However, if done correctly, it could support the story (similar to point 4 below)
4. I think this works in the more dramatic/romantic stories. Where the larger story requires depth or movement, without the MC being present. I think the VNs you referenced avoid choices being linked to info you've obtained in this way (or I hope they do)

I'd also take my thoughts on points 2-3 with a pinch of salt, as I prefer emotion and intent to be inferred from limited dialogue or small visual cues. Which obviously can be missed if you're just clicking till a breast appears.

Good luck!

Thanks, and good luck to you as well! I am probably going to steal your approach shamelessly.
I realize as I wrote this up that my very early outline completely violates #4 - in fact the game STARTS with a scene without the MC, LOL. This is going to be a disaster.

 

[FranceToast]

When devs put in faceless mc, mandate the player to decide the mc's name and use first person I'll have to come to the conclusion I'm not being told a story which means that game doesn't exist.

Sounds like MrKnobb's Retrieving the Past might be perfect for you!

 

[Cremona Devs]

Developing the MC is always a challenge, and it's quite tied to the kind of gameplay you want to achieve. I'm currently writing a VN and struggled with this as well, and in the end decided to make an actual MC instead of a player avatar because of the many limitations it would impose on the story. A novel approach I've seen around lately though in games like Monster Prom, is having several different MCs to choose from that actually impact on the story, gameplay and art, so even though it's not exactly 'you', there might be one that fits you the most so you can be comfortable playing as them without feeling too much like a spectator.

 

[DarthSeduction]

I want to make a game where the player is the MC, and while it seemed obvious at first, there are a lot of nuances involved, not just in terms of story building and the Omniscient Narrator, but also just practical concerns (rendering scenes)

1) Do you see the MC in 3rd person or all First Person POV?
a) FPPOV: Just his hands and uh...body parts in 3rd person (DmD, DoD, Babysitter) Just noticed in Acting Lessons we get the MC's chin in a close hug shot.
b) Mostly FPOV, but sex is 3rd person model (Man of the House)
c) Mostly 3rd person (Babysitter-although a lot of dialogue is in FPPOV)

Guessing a lot of this is driven by the artist's skill with staging/framing scenes. I can't relate personally to being the kid 3D model in MoTH, but do love how the rest of the game is framed as a FPPOV otherwise.

So, if I'm honest, in spite of the fact that I am a guy, the only game I have played that I really feel like it's my story that I am in full control of the character's actions in, is Coceter Chronicles. That game is largely done in third person, and has a female protagonist. So what does it have that games like the ones you mentioned doesn't? Player Choice. Don't get me wrong, Babysitter is one of the best written games in the industry currently, but for the most part, the actions the MC takes are simply extensions of his planned personality. With the others it's the same. With Tabitha on the other hand, her thoughts are yours.

To explain this better:

Spoiler: Kinda spoils the quest, but more about taking up less space.

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2) Do you read the MC's internal thoughts?
Almost every game has this I think? I like how Depraved Awakenings uses the weary detective talking to himself approach. I don't like games that put tons of "wow I can see her nipples through that dress!" thoughts into the game-isn't that what the Daz3D show nipple render is for? I just relate much less to MCs who have internal thoughts that comment on every scene, as they aren't *my* thoughts.

And this comes in at the end of the story I told about Coceter Chronicles, the amazing choices you're given with Tabitha include what she thinks about things. If you want to have thought based commentary on a given scene, make it a choice, make the player decide how the character feels about something. Or, reveal it through dialogue later. This is from my own game, rather than Coceter this time:

Spoiler: Seraphim Academy, again, not really spoiler, just more space.

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3) Do you see the other characters' internal thoughts?
This is a big one-I understand why it is there, but it also takes me out of the game somewhat. I like how Acting Lessons has the little "Melissa likes that" or "Liam will remember that" hints. I like how Man of the House conveys this through physical expressions (and email diaries) instead of thought bubbles.

Much to the chagrin of Funfiction, my artist on Seraphim Academy, and HellsPerfectSpawn, my artist on the other title I'm working on, I prefer to convey the thoughts of other characters through expressions. Of course, in the other title, both the brother and the sister are controlled by the player, depending on the scene, but other characters internal thoughts are pretty gone. Also, with that game, I literally have the twins narrating it, as if they're retelling the story to someone. However, back to Seraphim, unless a character explicitly states how they feel, the only thing you'll get is an expression.

This character doesn't even have any speaking lines in this scene, the context for this is that they've been handed back the work they submitted to get admitted to this prestigious program, and its been heavily critiqued by the teacher.

In the same scene, Alison lets you look over her paper, and while you do has this look of anticipation on her face


This is the only way I convey characters thoughts in this game, aside from allowing them to say things out loud.

4) Do you witness scenes of other characters where the MC is not physically present?
Conversations between two characters outside of the MC's presence, i.e. the Daughter and Elena in DmD, Elena and the other friend in DmD, etc...Acting Lessons also has this-both in Flashbacks (which I like) and in just conversations (there is one scene between Megan and Melissa that reveals to the player how they feel about the MC-which is moving, but then how are you, as the MC, supposed to pretend you don't know?)

This I try to use sparingly. There is a shot in the release those two images are from where the girl in the first picture, who is having a feud with another character, and her roommate, are depicted in a corner, laughing at the character who she's feuding with, as a bucket of some red substance falls over her head, just as she leaves the shower.

There's no dialogue, no thoughts, just us seeing something that Eve wasn't actually present for, but apparently, because this scene comes up in her blog montage, knows about.

It's possible to show things like this without giving your main character omniscience, you simply have to use it correctly.

 

[FranceToast]

So, if I'm honest, in spite of the fact that I am a guy, the only game I have played that I really feel like it's my story that I am in full control of the character's actions in, is Coceter Chronicles. That game is largely done in third person, and has a female protagonist. So what does it have that games like the ones you mentioned doesn't? Player Choice.

Thanks for the detailed examples! Also, damn, those renderings are amazing in showing emotion without the "here's what I'm thinking just to hammer this point down your throat" text needed.

 

[DarthSeduction]

Personally, I think outright avoiding the MC's face in third person, by the way, completely takes me out of it. Framing is pretty important to me. There are some instances where it's possible to have a good frame and also not go full POV, and then there's the rest. I know there's a shot in Dreams of Desire wherein the mom is jacking you off and the camera is very obviously placed like, on top of his arm, looking over his chest and stomach at the scene. Why wasn't it framed from his face? Probably doesn't see mom well enough at that angle or some stupid shit, but the result was an attrocious camera angle. Furthermore, when I see from MC's knees to MC's neck while he's doggy styling a girl from a side view, I really just wonder why we don't see his whole face at that point.

Immersion doesn't require you to see the character as exactly yourself in real life. As I mentioned in my previous post, the character I have been able to relate to the most is Tabitha, a short half demon brunette who's an avatar of a goddess of sex. And you see her in third person all the time. Meanwhile I'm a 186 cm tall blonde haired blue eyed white dude, the kind of person they make in the factories of scandinavia, england, and the netherlands.

Relating to a character is about writing, not visuals.

I think this works in the more dramatic/romantic stories. Where the larger story requires depth or movement, without the MC being present. I think the VNs you referenced avoid choices being linked to info you've obtained in this way (or I hope they do)

Both DmD and DoD do things in these scenes that the player shouldn't necessarily know. For instance, I'd only convey the suspicions of Elena, regarding your relationship with your daughter through expressions, Mr. Dots gives us both her thoughts and scenes where neither MC or D are present. Dreams of Desire is worse, with actual villains who we see to be what they are, ruining any hope of surprise.

 

[FranceToast]

Usually the thoughts and actions of the MC are entirely up to the writer, even in my own game, but I am also not trying to immerse you in her character, but rather using her to tell a story.

Oh, this reminds me- one of the Harry Potter VNs starts with someone asking you some questions about how you feel about MM/FF content, and you can respond appropriately ("anything two women do with each other is fine with me!"), which I suppose opens/closes various possible paths. It is integrated into the game as opposed to just a switch at the beginning of the game-not sure which one is a better approach. I can see NTR, MM/FF, Feet, Watersports, etc...all being handled by dialogue to make it more immersive, but also give the player a feeling they are defining their character.

 

[FranceToast]

Immersion doesn't require you to see the character as exactly yourself in real life. As I mentioned in my previous post, the character I have been able to relate to the most is Tabitha, a short half demon brunette who's an avatar of a goddess of sex.

Relating to a character is about writing, not visuals.

Well, I agree with this sentiment-and quite frankly I think the MC avatar in My Life With Mary is pretty aspirational, LOL-it's a good looking model to me. And the manly clean shaven chin we glimpse at in Acting Lessons adds, and doesn't subtract from the FPPOV. But there are some games where the MC avatar just immediately takes me out of the "I'm the MC" atmosphere-I just can't relate at all. It doesn't make it a bad game, it just distances me from that aspect.

 

[DarthSeduction]

Oh, this reminds me- one of the Harry Potter VNs starts with someone asking you some questions about how you feel about MM/FF content, and you can respond appropriately ("anything two women do with each other is fine with me!"), which I suppose opens/closes various possible paths. It is integrated into the game as opposed to just a switch at the beginning of the game-not sure which one is a better approach. I can see NTR, MM/FF, Feet, Watersports, etc...all being handled by dialogue to make it more immersive, but also give the player a feeling they are defining their character.

A recent idea I have for a game starts you out in a relationship with a girl who, to me, would be the perfect idealized girlfriend. I plan to have it move forward with choices that will either open up an NTR path, wherein you, the MC, are stolen from the girlfriend by the only person who could, your little sister, or to allow you to stay with her. This will not be hidden content, though I will make it clear in descriptions that there are consequences for your actions. In this way, if you like NTR or Incest as fetishes you can choose to pursue her, but, if you really do end up loving this girl, and I kinda hope to make that happen, I want it to be a hard choice, and have content still to come if you choose not to go along with your sister's seduction.

This will be something I work on in my spare time though, already got two games going.

For Watersports there's a very good example of that content being gated behind a choice in Sisterly Lust.

In the other game I mentioned previously, wherein you play as both the brother and the sister, both characters are bisexual, but any choice to have MM or FF content will be gated behind your choices.

Well, I agree with this sentiment-and quite frankly I think the MC avatar in My Life With Mary is pretty aspirational, LOL-it's a good looking model to me. And the manly clean shaven chin we glimpse at in Acting Lessons adds, and doesn't subtract from the FPPOV. But there are some games where the MC avatar just immediately takes me out of the "I'm the MC" atmosphere-I just can't relate at all. It doesn't make it a bad game, it just distances me from that aspect.

Spoiler: NSFW

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Trying to teach myself Daz so that I can work on that third game I mentioned above in my spare time, and this is a concept image I came up with, I've already completely reworked the girlfriend there but that's pretty much how I'd make the MC look. Might mix his face up a bit more, I only had Michael to work with when I made this. And I also want to give him a beard, but meh.

The reason I showed this, is I feel like this image conveys so much more than just showing her.

 

[Ennoch]

Ohmy, i almost wrote an essay here but luckily for me (and for you as you don't have to read it) Darth posted his sooner!

The key here really is that you realize: The question is not whether to use something or not. Inner monologues, POV, whatever. The question is how you utilize these things. All of these things can be used in an intriguing way, there is no need to forego any of them, more like.. learning to wield them in an entertaining fashion should be your goal. Silent expressions or written thoughts both can be done in a stylish, interesting, intriguing way.

"Wow her nipples are poking out" is not an inner monologue to be honest so its not annoying because its an inner monologue. Its annyoing because its stupid and awkward and generally feels more like a lack of effort and/or lack of talent unfortunately.

Expressions are nice and very stylish but put a great deal of extra workload upon your shoulder and just to make a point, good expressions is very hard to make. Simple emotions are one thing but you have to keep in mind that you SHOULD NOT expect the player base to be able to read YOUR mind. The problem with expressions is that only you know what they hide, what you wished to express and others might come to a different conclusion. In truth, only a few expressions are obvious to read so using that to give off hints as a sole method is.. ill-advised as it presumes that most of the players are a natural at sensing the motives through a glance over one's face. On one hand. On the other it requires you to be able to make very good, tale-telling facial renders. Much easier said than done.

I'd try to keep thing simple in your shoes. Its nice to have something epic and players tend to have unrealistic expectations in both quality and quantity. Don't let yourself be coaxed into believing that you should try to compete with DoD or CC, or Agatha Christie in terms of writing. Its toxic if you let others set the bar of your capabilities. It starts a mile high that way and only goes higher.

 

[FranceToast]

Expressions are nice and very stylish but put a great deal of extra workload upon your shoulder and just to make a point, good expressions is very hard to make.

I assure you, I am completely ignorant of just how much work goes into this stuff, LOL!

I'd try to keep thing simple in your shoes. Its nice to have something epic and players tend to have unrealistic expectations in both quality and quantity. Don't let yourself be coaxed into believing that you should try to compete with DoD or CC, or Agatha Christie in terms of writing. Its toxic if you let others set the bar of your capabilities. It starts a mile high that way and only goes higher.

Thanks for this very important advice! I was seriously already planning a bunch of things that I saw users complain about here ("OK, I NEED AN ANDROID PORT FROM THE START, ALSO A COMPRESSED VERSION OF EACH, A WALKTHROUGH AND CG GALLERY") and I don't even have a script yet, just some stupid ideas, LOL.

 

[DarthSeduction]

The problem with expressions is that only you know what they hide, what you wished to express and others might come to a differenct conclusion. In truth, only a few expressions are obvious to read so using that to give off hints as a sole method is.. ill-advised as it presumes that most of the players are a natural at sensing the motives through a glance over one's face.

I both agree and don't agree here. Stories that hold your hand are ultimately irritating, but at the same time, as someone who was once a fan of CinemaSins, and now is a fan of people who critique CinemaSins, I realize that some people need to have their hand held. Jeremy, of CinemaSins is quick to get mad at exposition, but then in scenes which perfectly lay out what's happening through cinematographic use of frame, gestures, and non expository dialogue, like for instance, the scene in John Wick where it's pretty clear from the discussion that John and the Cop who comes to ask about the disturbance know one another, Jeremy sins it for not getting that there's an agreement on this matter between them. He was also notoriously bad at getting subtext in Get Out, which if you miss the subtext in certain parts of that film, you're proving that film right.

So I definitely see how it can get out of hand, luckily, there's more to it than just the expressions. In my post above, I showed two expressions, but that's 2/28 renders in that scene which also has dialogue to give those expressions context. Eve looks over Alison's paper and ends up pointing out some of the good things that the teacher had to say, Eve's own reading of hers is a little different, because she feels like the teacher didn't offer up any critique, good or bad, just marked it. This is also conveyed through the dialogue, and expressions. But I don't give people any specific thoughts from other characters. There's another shot I believe before this in the script, where Eve teases Alison about something, and there's a quick cut from that frame to the next where Alison gives her a somewhat dirty look, but then goes back to being cheery. The point is to let you draw your own conclusions which ultimately, makes you more invested in the characters.

 

[vir_cotto]

1. Don't really care as long as MC is male. If he is an adult - not some high school or college kid - even better.
2. MC's internal thoughts/monologues are something natural for me. Personally, I like them - especially if they are witty and funny.
3. I know many games do exactly that. Don't like it, but can cope with it. I get it - the author knows everything and everyone, but he/she shouldn't project his/her "omnipotence" on MC. AL and MotH are good examples of how to do that right.
4. I understand the reason for that: devs need to provide enough content and they do exactly that - giving us scenes our MC shouldn't know of. But, as I said, I accept that. What I really don't like is throwing us into the role of one of those characters - that's breaking my immersion into the game.

 

[DarthSeduction]

I assure you, I am completely ignorant of just how much work goes into this stuff, LOL!

If you're using Daz, I suggest you spend some time playing with expression sliders, and download 100 essential expressions pack. I never actually use one of those expressions outright, but usually a mix of several different sliders, as well as toying around with the morphs on my own tweaking the mouth a bit, or knitting the eyebrows closer together. Expressions are hard to convey through words, so when FunFiction gets them right like he did in the images I showed above, it's amazing, but if you know what you're doing, it's a little easier to make it, but it is time consuming.



This is probably the second thing I ever set up myself, and you can clearly tell from her expression how she feels in this moment. Yet, at the same time, it doesn't look incredibly over the top. My lights were definitely too bright here though.

 

[FranceToast]

What I really don't like is throwing us into the role of one of those characters - that's breaking my immersion into the game.

Ok, yes! I also dislike being thrown into another character and having to actually make choices through that character. I guess if the game wasn't set up as a FPPOV to begin with, it wouldn't matter-and there are, as mentioned before, games that actively have you play different characters throughout the game, which isn't my cup of tea but as long as it is understood, it is cool.