why patreon forbid incest and rape (which are exist in movies and tv)

Ataios

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Sep 11, 2017
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I after some search, apparently they still fall under the youth protection law (Jugendschutzgesetz). And all I can found regarding art is the acceptation of the video game developers federation inside the cultural council, but nothing regarding Law :( So, if you have some links (er, not in German please), so I can update my knowledge.
In Germany games have to be verified by the USK, a rating board similar to the ESRB. They then get a rating and are available from a certain age up. If a game doesn't get a USK rating will be "indicated" by the BPJM (Germany has a lot of bureaucracy and an office for everything) and is no longer available in retail and may no longer be advertised in public. This is the case with games which are extremely violent. These games are not yet illegal though, adults may still buy and play them. A game can be confiscated, if it has illegal content though, in which case the purchase of the game is illegal too. This is the case with games that contain nazi symbolism.

The rest of Europe is more lenient. There is a rating board called PEGI which gives games an age rating. Other than in Germany these ratings are not legally binding. German versions of games often have both a USK and PEGI tag, because while Germany is rated by the USK, Austria and Swizerland are rated by PEGI. WW2 games that contain nazi symbolism are usually also geoblocked in Germany. In Austria they are not available in retail, but they are usually not geo-blocked.

As far as porn goes, however, the most problematic European country is Britain. There people have to sign a contract to be able to even have access to porn on the internet at all. The British government wants to go even further and ban anything they find "unusual", such as spanking and bdsm.
 

DarthSeduction

Lord of Passion
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Dec 28, 2017
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In Germany games have to be verified by the USK, a rating board similar to the ESRB. They then get a rating and are available from a certain age up. If a game doesn't get a USK rating will be "indicated" by the BPJM (Germany has a lot of bureaucracy and an office for everything) and is no longer available in retail and may no longer be advertised in public. This is the case with games which are extremely violent. These games are not yet illegal though, adults may still buy and play them. A game can be confiscated, if it has illegal content though, in which case the purchase of the game is illegal too. This is the case with games that contain nazi symbolism.

The rest of Europe is more lenient. There is a rating board called PEGI which gives games an age rating. Other than in Germany these ratings are not legally binding. German versions of games often have both a USK and PEGI tag, because while Germany is rated by the USK, Austria and Swizerland are rated by PEGI. WW2 games that contain nazi symbolism are usually also geoblocked in Germany. In Austria they are not available in retail, but they are usually not geo-blocked.

As far as porn goes, however, the most problematic European country is Britain. There people have to sign a contract to be able to even have access to porn on the internet at all. The British government wants to go even further and ban anything they find "unusual", such as spanking and bdsm.
The UK has long had a problem with moral censorship, strangely an even greater one than the US, which largely stands by free speech in such cases, though moral outrage occurs it's often manufactured by the media to generate views.
 

gamersglory

Xpression Games
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Aug 23, 2017
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If we want to be fully honest It's so-called Religion and Religious Groups that put presser on governments to tamp down on anything "Obscene" and "That could lead to the moral decay of society" that keep making things complicated
 

Ataios

Active Member
Sep 11, 2017
817
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The UK has long had a problem with moral censorship, strangely an even greater one than the US, which largely stands by free speech in such cases, though moral outrage occurs it's often manufactured by the media to generate views.
I find that particular strange too, as the US have far more religious fanatics, who hate any form of sexual freedom. Still British prudes are somehow more skilled at furthering their agenda than American ones.
 
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Pharan

Member
Apr 23, 2017
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If we want to be fully honest It's so-called Religion and Religious Groups that put presser on governments to tamp down on anything "Obscene" and "That could lead to the moral decay of society" that keep making things complicated
Religious groups as in Feminism? Because the only group I've seen actively try to control people these days are leftists.

The old religions used too, but they have so little sway in modern society it's backed off into 'positive active encouragement' I would say.

Feminist thought is what blocks us on Patreon content.
Feminist thought is what is controlling Hollywood content.
Feminist thought is what is resulting in all-girl remakes of our favorite genres.
Feminist thought is what is encouraging poor gender-relations and unnecessary hate and competition between the sexes.

No other "religious" group has this kind of control or affect on western civilization.
 

DarthSeduction

Lord of Passion
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Dec 28, 2017
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Religious groups as in Feminism? Because the only group I've seen actively try to control people these days are leftists.

The old religions used too, but they have so little sway in modern society it's backed off into 'positive active encouragement' I would say.

Feminist thought is what blocks us on Patreon content.
Feminist thought is what is controlling Hollywood content.
Feminist thought is what is resulting in all-girl remakes of our favorite genres.
Feminist thought is what is encouraging poor gender-relations and unnecessary hate and competition between the sexes.

No other "religious" group has this kind of control or affect on western civilization.
Hi, I'm a Feminist and an Incest game developer. Maybe you're referring to something else, maybe you simply have a lack of understanding of what feminism really is. Maybe you've seen the vocal minority of Tumblrettes seeking attention and being misandrists, not feminists. But no, feminism is not responsible for censorship on this level. Thanks for your understanding.

As for the power of religion, I'm sure you're either underplaying it, or you know nothing of America. Religion is so powerful here that there's still, every election, the subject of reproductive rights on the agenda. The discussion of gay rights in America is still alive and well. The discussion of whether or not your religious freedom grants you the right to discriminate is a subject of debate in America, that one by the way, has been a topic of discussion since the civil war, when the Mormon church was forced to accept black men into the priesthood to keep their official religious status.

Now, if you want to understand what's causing the issue, you need look no further than corporations themselves. In the internet age they are so afraid to step on any toes, be they feminist, religious, Nazi, what have you, that they strive for what is to their mind, the least offensive position they can take on any issue. Look, for instance, at the huge debacle over Starbucks holiday cups a few years back. Now, Jews, those who celebrate Kwanza, Muslims, and many others know and accept that much of the western world is shaped by Christianity, they know that many of us celebrate Christmas, even if we ourselves are not religious. However, in order to not be offensive, the company chose to remove Christmas symbols from their holiday cups.

It was a change they made that no one was really calling for, and all it did was cause controversy. More recently, I remember a case in regards to the whole Colin Kaepernick taking a knee at the National Anthem in order to protest. An a discussion about this went on with the people around the table on some sports show. At the end, one of the members of the panel made a valid and perfectly reasonable case for what Colin was doing, nothing was out of line, and nothing was heated. However all rebroadcasts of that show, including those online, removed his part from the discussion, in order to avoid controversy.

Feminists, religious fanatics, and whatever other social group you want to point to doesn't have to do anything. This corporate world we are in is doing the censorship all on their own. Deciding for us what our moral decisions will be. Deciding for us, how we will react, and how it will impact their bottom line. This isn't about one group or another demanding some change be made. It's about the power of corporations being abused in order to implement the least offensive version of society they can imagine. As long as no one is offended, in their mind, business will run as usual. Personally, I think it's time we start letting certain groups be offended, and simply show them why they're wrong. But I don't have a multibillion dollar corporation.
 

Ataios

Active Member
Sep 11, 2017
817
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Religion is far too powerful in most parts of the world, especially America. I mean: Their vice president is a fucking evangelical who believes the world is 6000 years old!!! If that is not too much religious influence, I don't know what is. In Turkey Erdogan currently does the same with different symbols. Europe up to now is still rather save. On the other hand, in Europe, both Christian and Islamic groups try to gain influece. And at least as far as the radical Christians go, people in Europe are not aware of the threat they pose. Evangelicals are not as common here as in the US, but in Germany, at least in the larger cities you will meet them on every other corners, sharing flyers or other propaganda stuff - and people laugh, thinking they are some kind of Jehova's Witnesses 2.0, completly ignorant of their political ambition. Add the fact that Evangelicals breed like rats on viagra, and we have a very dire future.
 

Pharan

Member
Apr 23, 2017
120
120
Hi, I'm a Feminist and an Incest game developer. Maybe you're referring to something else, maybe you simply have a lack of understanding of what feminism really is. Maybe you've seen the vocal minority of Tumblrettes seeking attention and being misandrists, not feminists. But no, feminism is not responsible for censorship on this level. Thanks for your understanding.

As for the power of religion, I'm sure you're either underplaying it, or you know nothing of America. Religion is so powerful here that there's still, every election, the subject of reproductive rights on the agenda. The discussion of gay rights in America is still alive and well. The discussion of whether or not your religious freedom grants you the right to discriminate is a subject of debate in America, that one by the way, has been a topic of discussion since the civil war, when the Mormon church was forced to accept black men into the priesthood to keep their official religious status.

Now, if you want to understand what's causing the issue, you need look no further than corporations themselves. In the internet age they are so afraid to step on any toes, be they feminist, religious, Nazi, what have you, that they strive for what is to their mind, the least offensive position they can take on any issue. Look, for instance, at the huge debacle over Starbucks holiday cups a few years back. Now, Jews, those who celebrate Kwanza, Muslims, and many others know and accept that much of the western world is shaped by Christianity, they know that many of us celebrate Christmas, even if we ourselves are not religious. However, in order to not be offensive, the company chose to remove Christmas symbols from their holiday cups.

It was a change they made that no one was really calling for, and all it did was cause controversy. More recently, I remember a case in regards to the whole Colin Kaepernick taking a knee at the National Anthem in order to protest. An a discussion about this went on with the people around the table on some sports show. At the end, one of the members of the panel made a valid and perfectly reasonable case for what Colin was doing, nothing was out of line, and nothing was heated. However all rebroadcasts of that show, including those online, removed his part from the discussion, in order to avoid controversy.

Feminists, religious fanatics, and whatever other social group you want to point to doesn't have to do anything. This corporate world we are in is doing the censorship all on their own. Deciding for us what our moral decisions will be. Deciding for us, how we will react, and how it will impact their bottom line. This isn't about one group or another demanding some change be made. It's about the power of corporations being abused in order to implement the least offensive version of society they can imagine. As long as no one is offended, in their mind, business will run as usual. Personally, I think it's time we start letting certain groups be offended, and simply show them why they're wrong. But I don't have a multibillion dollar corporation.
You misinterpret what I said. I didn't say religious groups don't have power in America. I said the most powerful group that has the most say above all other religious groups is Feminism. They perfected the formula of tribalism without even the usage of god. It is so powerful and ubiquitous with our societies values that even pointing that out is sounds for an attack at undermining its values, and thus in return we get responses like yours that even dares question the religious movement.

This religious movement in question (Feminism, and I'm going to continue calling it a religion because that is what it is at this point) is so powerful that we even elected a moron for president in SPITE of it. So I would kindly reconsider your stance of Feminism's power versus the older religions like Christianity.

I understand where you're coming from that it's not a single group that is responsible, but that's ignoring the fact that some groups are more responsible and have more power than others at this point. It used to be Christianity with that kind of power. Now it's been overtaken by Feminism. Not only does Feminism heavily control Hollywood and the media it's now controlling the other previous in control religious groups. Christianity at this point follows and exercises many Feminist talking points in opposite to some of it's teachings to closer be a part of that ingroup.

It's the most powerful religion in the modern world and anyone who opposes or even questions it is a heretic.
 

DarthSeduction

Lord of Passion
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Dec 28, 2017
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You misinterpret what I said. I didn't say religious groups don't have power in America. I said the most powerful group that has the most say above all other religious groups is Feminism. They perfected the formula of tribalism without even the usage of god. It is so powerful and ubiquitous with our societies values that even pointing that out is sounds for an attack at undermining its values, and thus in return we get responses like yours that even dares question the religious movement.

This religious movement in question (Feminism, and I'm going to continue calling it a religion because that is what it is at this point) is so powerful that we even elected a moron for president in SPITE of it. So I would kindly reconsider your stance of Feminism's power versus the older religions like Christianity.

I understand where you're coming from that it's not a single group that is responsible, but that's ignoring the fact that some groups are more responsible and have more power than others at this point. It used to be Christianity with that kind of power. Now it's been overtaken by Feminism. Not only does Feminism heavily control Hollywood and the media it's now controlling the other previous in control religious groups. Christianity at this point follows and exercises many Feminist talking points in opposite to some of it's teachings to closer be a part of that ingroup.

It's the most powerful religion in the modern world and anyone who opposes or even questions it is a heretic.
I suppose, that if you're anti feminism, it might appear that way. However, again I am an incest game developer and a feminist. My feminist friends are aware of and even support me as an incest game developer. Your image of what feminism is is either broken, or your agenda is misogynist. I don't say that lightly, I'm not here to prove you right about branding you a heretic because you don't subscribe. I'm actually saying that if you refuse to see the value in true feminism, an ideology that calls for the equal treatment of people across gender, then you are a misogynist. Now, if you want to crusade against the Hillary Clintons and the Joy Reids who pervert the idea of what feminism is, and become misandrists instead, then you and I are aligned. I don't consider Hillary a feminist. I don't consider Joy a feminist. There is a woman who people like to bring up who has written a book talking about how all sex is rape or some bullshit because she blames all sex on men, she's not a feminist. To call them feminists is disingenuous, because what they believe in isn't equality, it's misandry.

Your example in your first post of all the reboots with female casts, it's plain and simple, stupid. As I'll often say, no matter what happens with a reboot, take for instance, the upcoming Scarface remake, they can never take the old version from you. They can't ruin the old Scarface. Similarly, no matter if the recent Ghostbusters film was good or not, they'll never take the original Ghostbusters from you. I'm a writer, and when it comes to writing characters, the differences between a male character and a female one are negligible until sex becomes involved, and even then, they're far more negligible than you might think. For instance. Captain Phasma, from the recent star wars movies, was originally a male character. Someone asked, because Star Wars always has had this problem of having very few females in their cast, of swapping in a woman. She is absolutely just as menacing as any other person behind her mask, her being a woman doesn't detract from her character. There's no reason why you can't shake things up with a female reboot.

There is an argument to be made about an element of "poor gender relations" being a thing. But again you fail to find the mark on who to blame for this. I ask you, who benefits from a battle over something as superficial as gender? Who benefits from a battle over skin colour? Who benefits from a battle over religion? The answer is, the lawmakers and the Oligarchy behind them who wants us distracted fighting amongst ourselves, too busy to notice as they continue to steal from us. Hillary, and more to the point all politicians, want us to focus on social issues, and they have for a long time. Since the 80's and especially the 90's both parties have focused on social issues as the blame for peoples economic problems. The right, in spite of evidence to the contrary, wants you focused on the "illegals" coming in to "steal your job". The left, in spite of making no progress, expects the minorities to vote for them, because they're gonna do what they can through affirmative action to force equality. See, our country pretends it has 2 parties. But really they're the same party. They're the party of the wealthy elites. The Koch Brothers and Jeff Bezos are symbols behind each party, and I guarantee you they rub shoulders at the country club as they celebrate paying no taxes this year.

The problem isn't feminism, it isn't religion, it isn't gay rights activism, it isn't race activism. It's identity politics in the first place. I say again, I'm a feminist, I don't care if you have a dick or a vagina, you're gay or straight, Christian Muslim Jew Buddhist or atheist, black white yellow or brown, you're a person, you deserve equal treatment and rights, and you deserve freedom of speech. The only censorship I'm in favour of is censorship of intolerance, because tolerance of intolerance breeds intolerance. And you'll find that most people, no matter what they identify with, are on that same spectrum of believing in your right to freedom of expression. The groups who don't are the groups who seek control, the wealthy elites who want to ensure that the money keeps flowing.
 

gunderson

Member
Aug 17, 2016
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616
I'd rather not get into the game of 'This is the real problem.'

One problem is that many people cannot be fucking convinced of the difference between fact and fiction. Such people believe that the consequences of fictitious actions are the same as the consequences of real actions and treat them as such.

Examples of these problematic beliefs/arguments: Since incestuous sex might result in birth defects in the real world, it has to be banned in fiction. Since mind control in the real world is unequivocally rape, it must be censored in fiction. Since actually spending money and resources to procure sex rather than intensively courting someone is prostitution in the real world, then an abstract porn game where you solve puzzles and complete challenges to see porn images is commodifying women and must be censored in fiction.

Now, I don't think you're meaningfully wrong about corporations being afraid of offending anyone. Still, there's not much to do about that problem, because there's no reason to expect corporate culture to be flexible enough to become transgressive without a serious change in the marketplace itself. But education? That's something we can do on a grassroots level.

On that note, a PSA: fact and fiction are different. Please treat them as different. The consequences of real actions are not the same as the consequences of fictional actions. Please don't censor fictional actions just because you find their real counterparts distasteful or even illegal. Those things are different. In other words, fiction is just a bunch of ideas with no more substance than that. Don't be afraid of ideas.
 

HonoredEx

Member
May 2, 2017
241
301
Posting it here,

NEWS FLASH: the issue isnt morals/ethics or impacting people,
Its simply Lobbying.. otherwise why would patreon risk putting off hundreds of Devs and thousands of patrons when they were making money?
You can thank the organization know as MIM (morality in media) for that, They were the ones that pushed even steam to go crazy on the VN's recently


They lobbied payment systems (paypal etc) paypall pushed all of them,
 
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PinkysBrain

Newbie
Jan 27, 2018
39
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Religious groups as in Feminism? Because the only group I've seen actively try to control people these days are leftists.
Left/right is a poor way to describe the divide. It's mostly the religious right conspiring with the sex negative liberals and everyone else being too cowardly to go against them. Look at the senate vote for SESTA.
 
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zoneitorboneit

Active Member
Apr 30, 2018
779
616
You misinterpret what I said. I didn't say religious groups don't have power in America. I said the most powerful group that has the most say above all other religious groups is Feminism. They perfected the formula of tribalism without even the usage of god. It is so powerful and ubiquitous with our societies values that even pointing that out is sounds for an attack at undermining its values, and thus in return we get responses like yours that even dares question the religious movement.

This religious movement in question (Feminism, and I'm going to continue calling it a religion because that is what it is at this point) is so powerful that we even elected a moron for president in SPITE of it. So I would kindly reconsider your stance of Feminism's power versus the older religions like Christianity.

I understand where you're coming from that it's not a single group that is responsible, but that's ignoring the fact that some groups are more responsible and have more power than others at this point. It used to be Christianity with that kind of power. Now it's been overtaken by Feminism. Not only does Feminism heavily control Hollywood and the media it's now controlling the other previous in control religious groups. Christianity at this point follows and exercises many Feminist talking points in opposite to some of it's teachings to closer be a part of that ingroup.

It's the most powerful religion in the modern world and anyone who opposes or even questions it is a heretic.
You made statements previously and you were called out on it with not a single rebuttal. You can't be making wild statements like that and not expect to be called out on it.

Any movement that is big is not a religion, it has no deity. If you think religion does not play a big role in modern day politics, then look at how powerful the latter day saints are and how much they fund.

If feminism heavily controlled hollywood then there would be more female directors and films with proper parts for female characters that are complex. But there isn't. All your evidence is is a mish mash of gender for a film. That is not evidence of anything other than a silly fun concept.
 
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PinkysBrain

Newbie
Jan 27, 2018
39
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Religion is big, but it's just one of many factions ruled by divide and conquer. Feminism is another. Minorities are another. We're divided against each other and that's exactly as intended.

It's funny, a socially conservative homogeneous society (Japan) is much better suited to classical liberalism than a multicultural one. When people have faith in social control they are more likely to abide people on the fringes. When natural fault lines in society are all over the place, they turn to government instead.
 

zoneitorboneit

Active Member
Apr 30, 2018
779
616
Religion is big, but it's just one of many factions ruled by divide and conquer. Feminism is another. Minorities are another. We're divided against each other and that's exactly as intended.

It's funny, a socially conservative homogeneous society (Japan) is much better suited to classical liberalism than a multicultural one. When people have faith in social control they are more likely to abide people on the fringes. When natural fault lines in society are all over the place, they turn to government instead.
I'm confused, as a feminist you are part of a minority as is the case with actual minorities, hence the word. Religion isn't a minority, as it's part of a ruling group. Not to mention a minority is not a movement, it's simply an identification of people based on the class. It can be of any size.

As for Japan, how is it better suited for liberalism? What do you mean by multicultural? Do you mean modern?
 

PinkysBrain

Newbie
Jan 27, 2018
39
16
Why not just be nice and assume I meant ethnic minorities? For mutual understanding a little empathy is necessary.

With multiculturalism I mean a state where large percentages of the population have no real emotional connection to the rest of the population, a state without a nation. In these societies the state becomes little more than a club to beat the competing (furiner, wypipo, gadjo, goy, kaffir, plebs, rich) classes, who's opinion they don't really give a shit about. When there is no social control, what's left is state authoritarianism.
 

zoneitorboneit

Active Member
Apr 30, 2018
779
616
Sorry, it didn't occur to me that you meant ethnic minorities. Otherwise I would've assumed that. I certainly didn't want to seem nit picky or delve into semantics.

I do get your point now
 

TomRiddle69

New Member
May 5, 2017
13
12
Religious groups as in Feminism? Because the only group I've seen actively try to control people these days are leftists.

The old religions used too, but they have so little sway in modern society it's backed off into 'positive active encouragement' I would say.

Feminist thought is what blocks us on Patreon content.
Feminist thought is what is controlling Hollywood content.
Feminist thought is what is resulting in all-girl remakes of our favorite genres.
Feminist thought is what is encouraging poor gender-relations and unnecessary hate and competition between the sexes.

No other "religious" group has this kind of control or affect on western civilization.
It's actually the other way around. Everything you say is true for patriarchy, misogynistic values... These things kinda block content. Its enforced heteronormative sexuality with degrading elements. Well, how creative!