NTR and incest

[215303j]

I know that this is a possibly contentuous title, but I have a question.

Can both NTR and incest exist in a single game?

The answer is obviously yes. Big Brother is a prime example, but there are others as well. I don't intend to make this thread about Big Brother, I am only using this as an example which many here may be familiar with.

But if NTR is about watching somebody else have sex with "your" woman, then how can this exist in combination with incest, because the key element of incest is that you cannot "have" the woman.

If the key trigger of incest is the forbidden nature, which can't / shouldn't happen in real life, then you cannot have any "right" that you (let alone only you) can have sex with your family member.

Quite the opposite in fact. The original premise in Big Brother, that your mom has a relationship with a dude named Eric, is realistic. In today's world with high divorce rate, it is quite likely that your mom will be in a relationship with some dude which is not your dad, with or without your approval.

Also in real life, your sister will probably get into a relationship with some dude, whom you may like, or not. And most likely, you will be happy for her, or you will worry that she made the wrong choice, but either way you won't be able to influence it much, nor (and this is the key point) do you have any right to do so.

I'd be interested to hear any opinions on this matter.

P.S. it may be, that I am using the wrong definition of NTR, because that is quite difficult to define apparently. But it is not my intention to make this thread about definitions.

 

[Fragmentation]

Most people don't want to watch the person they desire having sex with someone else. Family member or not.

 

[Kaffekop]

Hey

This is a topic with varied views and strong feelings from either side of the fence. But yes, it can happen in a game, literature, movies, theaters, and what not, because it only has to make sense with the narrative of the story.
Granted, some narratives are stronger than others, but all in all, everything can be done as long as it stays within the narrative of the project, it may even make some kind of sense.

As I understand NTR it is the same as cuckolding. We need to understand and agree on what it is, or any debate will just steer of the rails immediately. Cuckolding is about love and the excitement of watching, knowing that your woman is being pleasured by another man: A bull (typically). Many confuse it with cheating, which it is not! Cuckolding is also about freedom and the ability to engage with others in sexual games. And typically they both get a kick out of it, or it wouldn't happen and it would simply be cheating.

In the context of incest, I believe that it can exist. That is in a consensual adult relationship. We have to understand that incest is only wrong because of social, moral and ethical control, and we should also remember, that it is not even illegal everywhere in the world. Even in the USA, some states are very lenient when it comes to incest and only "bring the hammer down" on incest marriage. So in my opinion NTR and incest are not necessarily exclusive.

BB is a whole other ballgame. It is all about corruption and force. There is no apparent love anywhere, just the overwhelming lust and desire to fuck any and all family members. It is, in my opinion, a rather dark and dismal "story" of a dysfunctional family.

Anyways. Long rant, and I'm sure others will disagree with some or even with most, or perhaps with all, of my rantings and so it must be.

Have a good one.

Cheers - Kaffekop

 

[xןʞ]

One day someone will develop a game where you play as the father married to your hot wife who actually looks 24, and you'll come home from work one day to find her getting fucked hard by your somehow big black son, in the shower of course because incest game.

It will be the perfect game that will finally appeal to fans of both groups.

 

[User_215882]

Of course you can have NTR and incest in the same game. NTR is either you getting cucked or you cucking someone else. Having NTR in an incest game just makes the emotions come out faster because its already established, unless its BB, that you do love your family and (hypothetically) want what's best for them. I mean everyone has had that one female family member date an asshole that you don't approve of. Now add in that you want to fuck said family member and now you have incest and NTR. Incest just makes the NTR build up shorter (that's if you want a story not just click and see scene).

 

[Ignazzio]

Hmm... That's really tricky issue due to how our games are constructed and how we perceive sexuality and its aspects. I'm a big NTR fan for a long time and I clearly remember times when no one know about it and male in an adult game was just vanilla competition without specific tag. Games of Goblinboy had usually strong competitors (much stronger than Eric) and they were the most popular in our market 12 years ago. When BB appeared it started as it somehow feels like NTR so people took this term as someone compared it to cuckhold and they use it till now. In this specific game it's not NTR at all. NTR is when MC's loved one (might be non-romantic love) is being taken from him while he has to observe (not everything but just sole fact) and feel helpless. In BB like in most games we have, NTR can't exist as they are mostly harems and MC by definition don't feel anything serious towards females. Max is a great example as he's not only lacking of any feelings but he's like a villain with whom Eric can't even compare. When it comes to the main question given by author I'm really not sure if they can go easily together. NTR is Japanese term and is connected with their perception. It's not English cuckhold or at least not entirely. I've never seen NTR game with incest in Japan and both genres are really popular there. Incest is more of a niche there and it doesn't mix well with most other fetishes in Japanese eroges. NTR on the other hand has it's own niche while elements of it (other male competitors) are rather common. If Japanese don't mix them I think it just doesn't fit well. NTR is based on psychological aspects of sexuality and negative emotions therefore it's extremally reality-based while incest is its opposite as it's based on unrealistic fantastic gratifications and "positive" emotions. I can see a game that takes incest really realistically and there is real NTR path due to our MC's feelings but that's really tricky. Reality based NTR might be troublesome if you consider incest to be real as well cuz in that case MC in such relation by definition doesn't feel much towards given female as he's broking her life on purpose with his act. That's something worth thinking about. All in all I doubt it's possible at this moment on our market as it requires extremally good narration and non-harem approach which isn't popular here. NTR considered simply as other males in game that can compete can exists everywhere ofc as it's just how life works. Vanilla themes fit everywhere

 

[vir_cotto]

One day someone will develop a game where you play as the father married to your hot wife who actually looks 24, and you'll come home from work one day to find her getting fucked hard by your somehow big black son, in the shower of course because incest game.

It will be the perfect game that will finally appeal to fans of both groups.

And developer will be Slonique.

 

[Zuleyka Games]

I've had a public voting on my Patreon. An incest is much more popular then NTR/cuckolds, but seems like NTR and incest have a great synergy in the adult gaming now

 

[215303j]

Reality based NTR might be troublesome if you consider incest to be real as well cuz in that case MC in such relation by definition doesn't feel much towards given female as he's broking her life on purpose with his act.

There you make the assumption that incest is always bad, or even catastrophic, as you say "breaking her life on purpose".

Of course IRL it would have major challenges and probably is a very bad idea in most "normal family" cases. But perhaps in some cases it could work out reasonably well.

I also think that IRL, NTR / cuckolding (and to perhaps lesser effect swinging) is also very bad idea in many cases. Also here perhaps in some cases it could work out well.

But I think that in a game, the scenario should be plausible / believable, but it can deviate a bit from "the norm". Which is what makes it interesting, I guess.

Disclaimer: do not try this at home!

 

[Ignazzio]

There you make the assumption that incest is always bad, or even catastrophic, as you say "breaking her life on purpose".

Of course IRL it would have major challenges and probably is a very bad idea in most "normal family" cases. But perhaps in some cases it could work out reasonably well.

I also think that IRL, NTR / cuckolding (and to perhaps lesser effect swinging) is also very bad idea in many cases. Also here perhaps in some cases it could work out well.

But I think that in a game, the scenario should be plausible / believable, but it can deviate a bit from "the norm". Which is what makes it interesting, I guess.

Disclaimer: do not try this at home!

Well, almost every incest example in real world I've ever heard of is really really bad thing. Even in case of adults that would be somehow mentally healthy (tho I'm not sure if that's possible) their life is just broken when people will know. And they will sooner or later. Incest between father and daughter is basically undefendable in my opinion. NTR is on a different scale as it's just vanilla. It's a common thing and it's hard to judge it as it has so many forms. If you like a girl in a highschool and she gets a boyfriend that's NTR. It might be good or bad as much as anal sex can be good or bad depending on a context. Problem with NTR is that it's not only cuckhold. Usually you're not with a girl you like in any relationship. You might be ofc and it's just bad then.
I'm not attacking incest or any other fetish, but I find it a reason why they are not used together in Japan when NTR originates from. In my opinion it might be that in a game with rich narration that has NTR, incest will always feel like something negative there due to how realistic setting is trying to be. That's only assumptions but the fact is that they seem to aim for opposite fans. From what I've seen on this forum since BB appeared, those who really don't like NTR are almost always into incest while those who like NTR (like me) usually tend to dislike incest. That's really interesting topic as our market is really small so this wall between both groups is highly visible

 

[xןʞ]

Not gonna get into personal game fetishes because I don't care about your boners.

But I've worked with abused kids for a long time and yeah all the real life incest instances I've encountered over the years during work generally involve some potbellied white trash dad grooming and raping his 12 year old daughter.

It is never the big dick studly son fucks hot horny supermilf fantasy porn that people are actually into.

(also real life NTR is a quick way for someone's wife to get OJ'd I would imagine)

 

[User_215882]

I know a few second cousin marriages and one first cousin marriage and I can tell you there out there. Not much hate about the second cousin, but the first cousin couple doesn't make it a habit to mention that they are related. I mean its not unlikely that love cant come between family members. As for NTR, at least from where I am from, you probably would get bullied out of the community if you mentioned or someone found out you liked to get cucked more than if you had relations with a family member (consensual of course).

 

[Ignazzio]

Cousins relations are much different as it's not a close connection. In my opinion it barely qualifies and isn't so uncommon. I don't find it healthy but it doesn't feel as unnatural as incest with close family member for most people. Incest isn't only social tabbo but also biological and it's much weaker with cousins. Ofc that would be pretty messy in most places to marry your cousin as well I guess.

 

[Sam]

As I understand NTR it is the same as cuckolding. We need to understand and agree on what it is, or any debate will just steer of the rails immediately. Cuckolding is about love and the excitement of watching, knowing that your woman is being pleasured by another man: A bull (typically). Many confuse it with cheating, which it is not! Cuckolding is also about freedom and the ability to engage with others in sexual games. And typically they both get a kick out of it, or it wouldn't happen and it would simply be cheating.

I disagree with this definition, what you described (IMO) is swinging.

Swinging/Sharing/Open Relationship
The protagonist and/or their partner have sex with other partners. Everything is consensual and everyone has a fantastic time. No feelings of jealousy, just openness.

NTR/Cuckolding
The protagonist has no say in the matter, the love interest is fucking somebody else against their wishes, the love interest may or may not be consenting as well. Eg, if someone was raping your partner infront of you, that would be NTR, if your partner was cheating on you that would be NTR, etc.

The key here, is NTR invokes jealousy, swinging doesn't. You have no say, power or control in an NTR scenario, your love interest's partner and/or your love interest has all the power.

VNDB supports my definition as well, none of these definitions comes with the consent of the protagonist.

You must be registered to see the links

: The heroine is willingly cheating on the protagonist with another guy and enjoys every second of it. No rape, blackmail, drugs etc. involved, it's consensual sex from the very beginning.

You must be registered to see the links

: Initially, the heroine is raped, blackmailed, drugged or otherwise tricked to have sex with someone other than the protagonist. However, she eventually starts enjoying it and the sex becomes fully consensual in the end.

You must be registered to see the links

: The heroine is raped in front of the protagonist and he can only helplessly watch it. It's non-consensual from start to finish.​

But if NTR is about watching somebody else have sex with "your" woman, then how can this exist in combination with incest, because the key element of incest is that you cannot "have" the woman.

If the key trigger of incest is the forbidden nature, which can't / shouldn't happen in real life, then you cannot have any "right" that you (let alone only you) can have sex with your family member.

It's not so much "your woman" its "your love interest". Whilst you wouldn't have any claim to someone in your family, if you did have incestuous feelings towards one of them and you actively witnessed them fucking someone else, that would invoke feelings of jealousy and thus be (IMO) NTR. Although I'd think it would be a stronger form of NTR if either your love interest or their partner were aware of your feelings.

 

[Hadgar]

I agree that characters who are a romantic interest for the main character can dating other guys. This is a normal part of our world.
But when we talk about games of this genre, we immediately assume that somehow family members are open to such a relationship. It may be interesting rivalry between the MC and the mom / sister boyfriend. The author of the game can give the opportunity to support the choice of mother / sister, as say: love is when you are happy when the one you love is happy. By the way in the BB this possibility is not given just because Eric is an asshole and there is essentially no choice. Or the MС can show the mother that he is already an adult man whom she can rely on, a sister that he can take care of her better than her boyfriend. The problem is that when a developer adds a mother / sister guy and the MC can not do anything about it, it only causes negative emotions. Of course, in the real world, if someone's mom decides to have sex with a plumber, she will not ask permission from the children, but that does not mean that they can not say anything about it.
Returning to the fantastic world. In my opinion, such relationships can not be called NTR, but if the developer does not give a choice, then it will please only the NTR fans.

 

[89tasker]

Seems that the only thing we can agree on is that people don't know what it means, so it becomes a blanket statement to describe all sex not being performed on the main character.

 

[AkitoH]

Very possible. For sure. The biggest thing for me though is the focus. What is the game trying to center around? Incest? Or NTR? That focus must be clear and communicated properly to the players, otherwise they'll feel misled, as a lot of Big Brother's early fans were.

Big Brother's problem was that it was marketed as incest and went in a direction that blindsided a lot of people because this guy comes into your home and says "All the girls in the house are mine."

The Synopsis on Dark Silver's Patreon wall for Big Brother is: Main character - Max, young guy who is living in poor family with mother and two sisters. However, Max’s father gifted them a wonderful house! Even with pool! But money shortage problem is not solved yet. Can Max earn some money? Can he seduce all girls around? Can he reach anything in his life? Only player can help him.

^ No sign of Eric or outside interference anywhere. See where the complaints stem from? It was marketed to be just Max seducing everyone. Not battling with someone for control over the family. Of course one of the tags is group sex (FFM, MMF) but that was mostly under the impression that it was an option for the player to share.

Originally, DS did not know what NTR meant and when it was explained to him, he did not classify this as NTR because the girls were family. Not lovers. Kind of like this discussion. And that point is certainly right from a moralistic perspective. But incest is not moralistic. Incest is unnatural for a reason.

It would make sense for a mother to have a boyfriend with or without consent of the male child. It would make sense for brothers/sisters to find romance outside of the family, because that's what's natural.

So what it comes down to is planning and marketing. It's very possible for both to coexist. You see it all the time in hentai manga. But if it's not being marketed as NTR, you're gonna have a lot of players feeling betrayed by the result of someone coming in to take your family from you. It's more so a fan reaction than a writing anomaly. That's why a lot of "vanilla" fans would love to see the NTR tag on these stories so they can avoid it like the plague. If you don't at least put a tag saying NTR is involved in the plot, chances are a lot of fans won't be happy.

 

[User_215882]

No there are people who know pretty well what NTR is. Just people assume anytime a game has another male character its assumed there might be some NTR. So for example. If in the early stage of an incest game your {insert female family member} is dating someone and you just happen to catch them doing something lewd that's not NTR. Now say down the road and you and that family member are in a somewhat sexual relationship or its implied that the MC has an interest in her and for whatever reason (be it rape or consensual) she starts to fuck another dude in your presence than that's NTR.

 

[215303j]

Well, almost every incest example in real world I've ever heard of is really really bad thing. Even in case of adults that would be somehow mentally healthy (tho I'm not sure if that's possible) their life is just broken when people will know. And they will sooner or later. Incest between father and daughter is basically undefendable in my opinion.

For the record, I'm not trying to defend IRL incest. Just saying that, in some cases, it could work out, at least on a short-term basis, more so if the pair are the same age and cousins rather than siblings. Still it may end up very nasty, as it does inevitably change a relationship which it's not easy to walk out of.

On the other hand, cuckolding or swinging also has a profound effect on the relationship with your partner and can also end up very nasty.

That's why such genres are more interesting in a game than IRL.

 

[Egglock]

Not to take the topic off course, but why does it matter if it is NTR or incest or any form of fetishes for that matter? It's a video game for the love of porn. It's a safe place to explore taboo topics, if one's not mature enough to handle such content, than I would say don't indulge in it. Then again what would I know, I sit here and stare at my screen while getting a boner to 0's and 1's.

As far as the OP, any form of fetish can co-exist, it's a virtual world, the only limitation is one's imagination, creativity, and the available software/hardware.