My "problems" with RPGM and "free-roaming" VNs

[Trasher2018]

Intro:
I just posted this in a RPGM game thread - and use here a lightly edited version. I want just to express my opinion on these kind of games and may be have a conversation about them. Maybe someone has any good points to make or know (adult) games that really get better because they have movement in them.

Post:
I dont see any benefit in that walking. There is nothing that changes. In the end I have to walk from A to B to trigger event X. In the VN I just click to trigger X (or there is this horrible "free-roaming" present and I have to click-walk to trigger event X ). In 99% of all RPGM (and "free-roaming" VNs) the movement doesn't add anything meaningful. As a mechanic it is just a click that takes longer and the user has to find where the trigger is.

Walking in a map only adds to the gameplay when the walking itself is a form of decision making. When there are more than 1 trigger at any given time, or events I can miss. As long as there is only one trigger to avtivate, the walking has no meaning. It is just stretching the playtime. Some VN ports of RPGM games show that perfectly - they are the same games, just without that tideous running and a streamlined and (more) fluid gameflow.

IMHO as a designer you have to think about the system you want and/or need. Always question yourself with a simple question. Does that add anything meaningful to my game? - If the answer is yes, fine. No ... dont add it ^^ And as I said, in the majority of RPGM and movement VNs there is nothing that the movement adds to the game. Nothing for the player. There are a few exceptions where you have more options at any (mostly) given time and the movement of the player is part of the decisions that impact the gameplay. But that is hard work and hard to do right. I think in High Life and The DeLuca Family it is at least not useless - but at least currently The DeLuca Family could work without that and could be played as a VN without movement with just some minor adjustments. And that are the better ones that I can think of ...

And yes. Movement can add something to the feeling of the game even without adding anything to the gameplay. But in most cases it is just there to stretch time or add grinding.

I dont know why so many devs think they have to add more gameplay into their VNs. Maybe because they think the are more game than without it. To many games try to make a business simulation with the foundation of a VN. I think there is a reason why most good games of that genre are not famous for there stories ^^ And believe me, as a german I played alot of them in the 90s ^^ They are mechanic/system driven games. They have to have a great mechanical structure and only after that you can try to add a story to this. I think you can build such a game, but that has to be a simulation of any kind first, and then you can add a lewd story to this. And I dont think that this genre is the perfect spot for this. And yes, I think a game like "Die Fugger 2" (dont know the english title) with more explicit nudity and sex could work perfectly. They even tried it with games like "Wet - Sexy Empire" but that was not a good game, because the systems and mechanics where flat and got repetitive very quickly.

Ok ... but I get in rambling mode ... so I cut it here ^^

[...]

For ME these games are not fun to play, because I hate it that I have to search for the trigger to continue. Even worse when you get the answer "just use the walktrhough or hint system". Both of that are lazy and bad game design. As soon as it is not obvious (or at least easy to understand with some thinking) what and where to do next, its a failure. [...] But than you have the other "problems" with RPMG. The horrible audio menu (I have to set the volume via windows settings to 2% and ingame on 20) and every game starts with 100!!. Then there is that save system where you need more clicks to save/load than to shut down you whole system. Most games use that horrible 4:3 ratio and are laggy even on good PCs.

Edit: Any spelling or grammatical error is an expression of my individual non-native speaking personality and is intended as a statement for my free spirit. Deal with it ^^



If this is not the correct forum and this is off topic, feel free to move it - and in that case, sorry in advance.

 

[redknight00]

What you just described is not RPGM, they are games that should not be in this engine in first place.

 

[Avaron1974]

I'm the opposite, I prefer RPG's over VN's mainly because of the gameplay. I prefer to have something to do that immerses me in the game and draws out my playtime than just clicking a screen.

VN's generally bore me. No matter how good the art or a story is, clicking a screen constantly doesn't entertain me and I end up shutting them down after 10 minutes to play Final Fantasy 14.

I'm not a fan of visual novels in RPGM but that's less to do with the gameplay and more to do with them being dogshit awful. You either play as a dumb bitch that gets dumped full of cum by everyone in the game because she's a moron like Lida, Elena, Anna etc... or you play as a young boy which appeals to me about as much as using a power sander to remove my nail polish.

I love RPG's though and RPG's in Ren'py are generally dull as dishwater with yet more clicking.

 

[GuyFreely]

I agree (and have previously stated) that if nothing happens while moving around the map, then that movement should be limited. I don't mind a little bit of manual navigation, but it should be super efficient. Like all the major buildings should be on one screen in close proximity. I've played games where you literally have to leave point A, change maps two times to get to point B, only to be sent back to point A. This is clearly just designed to pad the run time of the game with pointless walking. A good developer who realizes it's a bit of an issue will usually put in a quick travel system, bus stops, subways, magic teleports, etc. Again, if nothing is going to happen, I also prefer to just click where I want to go and be there.

There have been a series of renpy conversions of some RPGM games and I much prefer them. One success story is Fashion Business which was originally made in RPGM and the dev himself remade it in Ren'py which was much more suited for what he was doing.

 

[HopesGaming]

The DeLuca Family it is at least not useless - but at least currently The DeLuca Family could work without that and could be played as a VN without movement with just some minor adjustments. And that are the better ones that I can think of ...

What kind of minor adjustment? How will you get the management system with the missions and contracts in a pure VN format? Or the quest system?
The point of the free-roaming is for players to go in their own pace, immersive reasons, story reasons and for them to feel that they're rising in the mafia ranks (the main point of the game).
If they want the story mode they click continue button to engage in that. If they do not feel like doing the story but rather progress with the mafia stuff or with any of the girls they stay in the free roaming part.

All of that would be gone with a pure VN game and would require me to remove a lot of stuff and a lot of the story too.

 

[Duke Greene]

The reason a lot of amateur visual novels - particularly Japanese - use RPG Maker is because it requires no programming knowledge whatsoever. Sure you can't do everything only by using the eventing system but for these cases there's a huge library of public scripts to choose from. I would know, I spent nearly a decade contributing to that library.

Ren'Py on the other hand does necessitate to learn Python so even if it would be a much better choice to use the devs stick with RM due to the ease of entry.

 

[random.person]

I agree with a lot of the points made in the OP.
I will add one thing only: why do all RPGM games need to have such low movement speed? You can "dash" in most of them, but even that way you pretty much go at a snail's pace.
The result, since there usually is a lot of back and forth in those games, is that they are unbearable if you don't use Cheat Engine to alter the game's speed (which is a great quality of life change for random combats too).

Besides, most of those games either don't have fast travel or lock it behind teleport squares / stones etc. The only instance in which such a mechanic adds to the game, imho, is when it is forbidden to exit dungeons without expending items. Otherwise fast travel should be mandatory.
For instance, Flash Cycling, which I played in the past few days, has the possibility to fast travel to key locations, which saves a lot of hassle.

Long story short: I can bear or even enjoy (but this requires effort from the author since there needs to be something worth the stroll) walking around, but there must be a way to do it really fast for all those time you need to traverse five areas before you get to the NPC or place you need.

 

[W65]

Not an expert with RPG Maker by any stretch, but pretty much anything beyond what the engine gives you as tools needs to be implemented in JS... which defeats the "no programming" point for newbie devs. So since the default is to use walk-around maps, and you end up with plenty of games using walk-around maps. There are plenty of plugins available for RPG Maker, yeah, but I imagine that integrating them well into the game requires at least a little bit of programming ability, especially when you try to add many of them.

So, basically, unless a dev wants to get into expanding RPG Maker themselves, and unless there's a fast travel or navigate-by-menu plugin that they like, it's kinda unlikely that new devs (who probably can't afford get a programmer to help them out if they aren't one themselves) are going to do much beyond the basics of what RPG Maker offers.

(And I oughta mention that even for folks who do know JS or similar high-level languages, there's the challenge of learning the RPG Maker API and libraries before you can really apply that knowledge. That might not be something every dev has the time to do even if they're a competent programmer. Of course, that's who plugins are for.)

 

[Trasher2018]

What kind of minor adjustment? How will you get the management system with the missions and contracts in a pure VN format? Or the quest system?
The point of the free-roaming is for players to go in their own pace, immersive reasons, story reasons and for them to feel that they're rising in the mafia ranks (the main point of the game).
If they want the story mode they click continue button to engage in that. If they do not feel like doing the story but rather progress with the mafia stuff or with any of the girls they stay in the free roaming part.

All of that would be gone with a pure VN game and would require me to remove a lot of stuff and a lot of the story too.

Outch. You got me ^^

You already separted the story a bit so it could be possible to strip the management and just tell the story by adding some small filler stories to illustrate that you have done some missions to explain why you rise in rank.

Thats why I pointed to the game because the gameplay itself has a reason and is "real gameplay" and not just moving around.
Your game is really one of the few where all that doesnt feel tacked on and need adjustments to skip that. In most other games you could kick all that out and still have the same game - just shorter ^^

 

[Goblin Baily: DILF]

I'm the opposite, I prefer RPG's over VN's mainly because of the gameplay. I prefer to have something to do that immerses me in the game and draws out my playtime than just clicking a screen.

VN's generally bore me. No matter how good the art or a story is, clicking a screen constantly doesn't entertain me and I end up shutting them down after 10 minutes to play Final Fantasy 14.

I'm not a fan of visual novels in RPGM but that's less to do with the gameplay and more to do with them being dogshit awful. You either play as a dumb bitch that gets dumped full of cum by everyone in the game because she's a moron like Lida, Elena, Anna etc... or you play as a young boy which appeals to me about as much as using a power sander to remove my nail polish.

I love RPG's though and RPG's in Ren'py are generally dull as dishwater with yet more clicking.

if you have the chance to find this old games, you may like "Septerra's core' it's a turn based story driven rpg, that is set on 9 huuuuuge ass planets

 

[redknight00]

Not an expert with RPG Maker by any stretch, but pretty much anything beyond what the engine gives you as tools needs to be implemented in JS... which defeats the "no programming" point for newbie devs. So since the default is to use walk-around maps, and you end up with plenty of games using walk-around maps. There are plenty of plugins available for RPG Maker, yeah, but I imagine that integrating them well into the game requires at least a little bit of programming ability, especially when you try to add many of them.

So, basically, unless a dev wants to get into expanding RPG Maker themselves, and unless there's a fast travel or navigate-by-menu plugin that they like, it's kinda unlikely that new devs (who probably can't afford get a programmer to help them out if they aren't one themselves) are going to do much beyond the basics of what RPG Maker offers.

(And I oughta mention that even for folks who do know JS or similar high-level languages, there's the challenge of learning the RPG Maker API and libraries before you can really apply that knowledge. That might not be something every dev has the time to do even if they're a competent programmer. Of course, that's who plugins are for.)

Not really, while Java knowledge takes the creator to another level of mastery over RPGM, the number of tools available in the engine itself is enough for all but the most complex mechanics and plugins are readily available for use, most of them even come with detailed guides and/or videos with no programming skill needed.

 

[random.person]

Not really, while Java knowledge takes the creator to another level of mastery over RPGM, the number of tools available in the engine itself is enough for all but the most complex mechanics and plugins are readily available for use, most of them even come with detailed guides and/or videos with no programming skill needed.

Did you mean JavaScript or did they change language again?

 

[redknight00]

Did you mean JavaScript or did they change language again?

That's what I meant.

 

[Avaron1974]

I knew what you meant Red.




I didn't know what he meant.

 

[polywog]

Sometimes the walking gives your character strength, increases health, stamina, like real exercise / walking would.

But there are some developers who ejaculate in their sleep dreaming about how they made players walk back and forth across the whole map 8 times. Consider it payment for all the work he put into making the game.
Some developers are crazy. One puts his cock in all his games, and you have to jerk him off to play. No way around it, you gotta rub your mouse up and down his cock, and watch that the meter goes up, the meter doesn't go up unless you do it just the way he likes it done. We live in a sick world.
learn to mod games, so you can skip the parts that you don't like. add teleporters all over the map
add random gold / loot / enemies along the path

 

[Domiek]

I'm a bit confused by what "free roaming" VN means. I interpret it as a sandbox game where you can choose to go to different locations via map. I don't see how that's bucketed with rpgm games. In one you can spend a minute or two running to a location. In a VN it takes a whole 2 seconds.

 

[Trasher2018]

learn to mod games, so you can skip the parts that you don't like. add teleporters all over the map
add random gold / loot / enemies along the path

But that doesnt make the games better - its just cheating. As soon as the users have the feeling the have to use cheats to have fun, your gamedesign failed.

Edit:

I'm a bit confused by what "free roaming" VN means. I interpret it as a sandbox game where you can choose to go to different locations via map. I don't see how that's bucketed with rpgm games. In one you can spend a minute or two running to a location. In a VN it takes a whole 2 seconds.

Not when you have to search on 10 locations at time X to trigger event Y.

The DeLuca Family is a good example. There are only a few locations and the game has even a working quest log. So you halways have a clue when and where you can trigger something and how.

In the end its the same. Walking to trigger X or clicking thru several locations to trigger X. RPGM has more problems that add to my dislike (as pointed out in my first post) but conceptually the is not much difference. And dont call them sandbox - 99,9% of them have nothing sandboxy because there is no freedom for the player in these games.

 

[Domiek]

But that doesnt make the games better - its just cheating. As soon as the users have the feeling the have to use cheats to have fun, your gamedesign failed.

Edit:

Not when you have to search on 10 locations at time X to trigger event Y.

The DeLuca Family is a good example. There are only a few locations and the game has even a working quest log. So you halways have a clue when and where you can trigger something and how.

That sounds like a problem of not providing enough information to progress the game, rather than an issue inherent to free roaming.

 

[jamdan]

The problem with some free-roaming or RPG games is its quite easy to get lost and not know what you're supposed to be doing, so you just end up aimlessly walking around or clicking everything. Its why i think they should always have quest logs or a good "hints" function.

 

[Spirox]

Hey guys! I don't know if you knew that but... RPG Maker has NOW a new software released !!

Please applause:

You must be registered to see the links

Hurray!

So in the future, I don't think (I hope) we won't see VNs in RPGM.