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For people who are patrons...

HopesGaming

The Godfather
Game Developer
Dec 21, 2017
1,704
15,321
You forget that people tend to believe those who have the "majority", to put it simply, this is a herd instinct, when a person sees the number of likes, the number of posts in the topic, the number of patrons, and in General that this is "obviously" a large and reliable project, since so many people support and discuss this game, they can't be idiots, right? It can't be that so many people can be deceived, right? They can't all think the same way I do, can they?

And this is just one of the factors, and after all, a person may have little time, and he does not want to spend it searching for games, so he looks at the most popular ones, Oh hell, and again we return to the first paragraph...

Okay, I have time, but I'm not inclined to trust "small" or inconspicuous projects, because even though I have time, but I will quickly get tired if I look at all the games, hell, I have to rely on recommendations again, where they will recommend a popular game.

People are lazy creatures, our body tends to homiostasis, we do not like to waste energy, or go against the crowd, and there are still a lot of reasons that ultimately leads the player to a large and popular project.

I'm not saying that large and popular projects are to blame, but they will obviously gather a crowd around them, whether they want to or not, and this phenomenon exists, the problem is in us, in people, this is the reality.
To deny this is like denying the human stupidity that leads to it

P. S You could talk about this, if the same conditional 10,000 people would get acquainted with a large and small project, then we can say that the problem is in a small project, but we see that most small projects get little attention, no matter what nugget is hidden there, if no one sees it and can not evaluate it, it does not make sense.
Yea, I do agree that there exist herd mentality in this market like most places. That is normal behavior.
But in this market, we need to remember that it is 'fairly' new compared to other places.
Even the biggest dev out there have only been at it for a couple of years tops and the community is still 'niche'.

We get a lot of new games per month, but we are not in the state where we get so many new games that the community can't follow up and have to follow the herd. Any game you see appear on f95 get played, comments and reviews (if the game is good enough ((or bad enough, heh))
Basically, any game that has an ounce of quality will be detected. May not become big or explode. But it will be detected, it will be played and judged.
WVM didn't come from an established dev (afaik) nor was there a big promotion or anything else to make it more visible among the crowd.
Once it got a bit of traction, herd mentality starts and it explodes.
I had a fairly good start where I got a bit of traction at the start. I didn't have any special pr either. Just got the game in the thread and the rest happened by itself.
And this is pretty much the same with the rest.

I don't believe that in our current market there is a game that hasn't taken off due to simply not been seen.
Honestly don't believe that. This community eats up everything that comes in its way. Nothing get's past it. If a new game ends up in the game thread section. You can bet there are a couple waiting to eat it alive. If it's tasty they will let everyone know. If it's not. It will usually be forgotten.
 
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Canade

Active Member
Sep 26, 2018
903
985
If I like a game, but it's barely making money, then I'll sub semi-high until the developer gets more support and lower it when they start doing well. If I like a game generally, I'll sub $1 or $5 a month for awhile.
 

baka

Engaged Member
Modder
Oct 13, 2016
3,382
7,053
and to continue what DbatRT wrote, we also have people skipping games based on engine.
it seems that Ren'Py is the most accepted engine while RPG maker usually people complain and want it to be converted into Ren'Py. and Im sure some people will even skip the game without giving it a try just because its RPG maker.
my project is created from scratch, so a new engine, and I believe people will skip it without giving it a try, believing it most be crap.
 

Joshua Tree

Conversation Conqueror
Jul 10, 2017
6,158
6,555
I don't believe that in our current market there is a game that hasn't taken off due to simply not been seen.
Honestly don't believe that. This community eats up everything that comes in its way. Nothing get's past it. If a new game ends up in the game thread section. You can bet there are a couple waiting to eat it alive. If it's tasty they will let everyone know. If it's not. It will usually be forgotten.
There is a LOT of places on the net to be seen though. Even this is a big and specialized site for the adult game scene, it's not end of all. Think I even seen people posting game trailers on pornhub and similar. It's really a huge market, you just need to reach out far and wide..
 

Joshua Tree

Conversation Conqueror
Jul 10, 2017
6,158
6,555
and to continue what DbatRT wrote, we also have people skipping games based on engine.
it seems that Ren'Py is the most accepted engine while RPG maker usually people complain and want it to be converted into Ren'Py. and Im sure some people will even skip the game without giving it a try just because its RPG maker.
my project is created from scratch, so a new engine, and I believe people will skip it without giving it a try, believing it most be crap.
If the game is good it doesn't really matter the engine really. There is good and bad games made in whatever engines out there. What probably people got the most issues with games made in RPGM is you end up run a small dude around on maps doing buttkizz all other than actually get excited about some fap fap stuff on the screen.
 

recreation

pure evil!
Respected User
Game Developer
Jun 10, 2018
6,260
22,217
and to continue what DbatRT wrote, we also have people skipping games based on engine.
it seems that Ren'Py is the most accepted engine while RPG maker usually people complain and want it to be converted into Ren'Py. and Im sure some people will even skip the game without giving it a try just because its RPG maker.
my project is created from scratch, so a new engine, and I believe people will skip it without giving it a try, believing it most be crap.
If it's your own creation, you could call it "renpy-fake-engine", maybe it helps^^
 
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DbatRT

Newbie
Apr 8, 2018
60
28
HopesGaming
Fair enough, we have a situation where too many similar games are released and some people just stop viewing them.

baka
Stereotypes / negative experiences from playing on the X engine are also part of the problem.

Joshua Tree
Yes, because the developer is just wasting our time, instead of making a cutscene, forcing us to go without knowing where.

I like Anna Exciting Affection, but only on the Renpy port, the RPGM version sucks...
 
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Xenoga'me

MagicalGene Developer
Game Developer
Oct 15, 2020
413
393
I'd love to dedicate some of my income to developers and support them. My love is making games and I like to sit at the computer and draw sexy models from morning till night. I don't care what others think, I enjoy it. I feel good about supporting this developers such as my self. This is my love and I know I will succeed.
I write this here to read later and know where I started.
 

Crimson Delight Games

Active Member
Game Developer
Nov 20, 2020
763
1,818
A friends of ours forwarded us this thread, and reading through the entirety of it has proven very informative.

People have very strong opinions on the amount of control they feel they should exert over a developer's vision if they're pledging to a game. As a budding dev group, for us this is both illuminating and horrifying. It's incredibly difficult to produce any game, let alone something other people will value enough to play. Things become even more difficult when one adds patronage to the equation... and then on top of it there's always the expectation and pressure to modify one's vision on the fly to suit patrons' wishes, all while keeping up a steady output of quality content.

This isn't meant to be an indictment of anyone's preferences or wishes, but merely an observation; it's obvious why so many amateur porn games end up abandoned, or flat-out failing. There's just an ungodly amount of pins to juggle at the same time... And that's all without getting into more esoteric questions like the quality of the game content itself.

As a new dev group with an initial launch ~4 weeks away, this entire thread has been a definitive eyeopener.
 
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Droid Productions

[Love of Magic]
Donor
Game Developer
Dec 30, 2017
6,633
16,777
People have very strong opinions on the amount of control they feel they should exert over a developer's vision if they're pledging to a game. As a budding dev group, for us this is both illuminating and horrifying.
I wouldn't worry that much; admittedly I'm still a reasonable small fish, but out of ~400 patreons, less than 5% are regularly engaged in giving feedback, and in 90% of the cases they're supporting whatever vision you've got... that's why they're there in the first place.

Just be clear on what and why you are making the decisions you are, take feedback into consideration (often they have good ideas, or have spotted some plot-hole you'd ignored, or have balancing feedback that comes from being a player rather than a developer), and always remember that the reason they're there in the first place because they believe in you. It's only when you squander that trust that your relationship with them turns from friendly into antagonistic.
 

Joshua Tree

Conversation Conqueror
Jul 10, 2017
6,158
6,555
A friends of ours forwarded us this thread, and reading through the entirety of it has proven very informative.

People have very strong opinions on the amount of control they feel they should exert over a developer's vision if they're pledging to a game. As a budding dev group, for us this is both illuminating and horrifying. It's incredibly difficult to produce any game, let alone something other people will value enough to play. Things become even more difficult when one adds patronage to the equation... and then on top of it there's always the expectation and pressure to modify one's vision on the fly to suit patrons' wishes, all while keeping up a steady output of quality content.
As Rorschach would said "Never compromise, not even in the face of Armageddon". If you want to create a game and got a vision, stick to the vision and make the game you want to make. Don't start to alter things on the whim and wishes of patreons. If you make a good game, you will have people pledge and support based on what you make. I pledged in the past to games where the creator did allow to much of a influx on the story and progression from Patreons. I stopped pledged, because I was interested in what the creator was creating, not what patreons wanted him to create, alter and so forth.
 

DaClown

Member
Sep 12, 2020
172
273
I wouldn't worry that much; admittedly I'm still a reasonable small fish, but out of ~400 patreons, less than 5% are regularly engaged in giving feedback, and in 90% of the cases they're supporting whatever vision you've got... that's why they're there in the first place.

Just be clear on what and why you are making the decisions you are, take feedback into consideration (often they have good ideas, or have spotted some plot-hole you'd ignored, or have balancing feedback that comes from being a player rather than a developer), and always remember that the reason they're there in the first place because they believe in you. It's only when you squander that trust that your relationship with them turns from friendly into antagonistic.
I agree with the general sentiment of this, but I have watched a number of projects go south because some vocal and opinionated minority of the patrons started organizing shit against the devs. It is hard to quantify interference from non-patrons, but I am 100% certain that there are actually a lot of adult games and media projects which are under assault by outside provocateurs pretty much at all times.

When a project gets "big enough" it can attract the attention of saboteurs that are ideologically motivated to end the project by pretty much any means necessary. This often gets written off as "internet drama", but it actually is within the context of the ongoing vice wars by the agglomerated regressives, conservatives, and rightwingers of the world along with certain puritanical authoritarians in the center-left and corporate political coalitions. This can and does result in things like FOSTA/SESTA being enacted in national law or the Comic Code or the Hayes Code or the ESRB or Motion picture content rating system.

All of this is a reality and risk that people need to understand going into any crowdsourced or crowdfunded project. There will be people who will pay real money to sabotage your efforts if they believe that is their purpose whether God, king, or ideology. And they may well pay money to you to get access to your community. And being nice to them won't necessarily win them over to not attacking you and your project let alone actually supporting your efforts; I don't mean just one impotent person either because some of these people are in the top 10% of consumers in the world or are part of royal families with trillions of dollars collectively.

All of this creation and production does not happen in a vacuum; it is deeply political even if the devs want to espouse political neutrality or apoliticalness.

This stuff doesn't matter at all for the vast majority of projects. You have a cute cis-het couple fucking? Not likely to attract ire. You have a cis-het couple engaged in adultery? More likely to attract ire. The further you get from the common "proper" patriarchal norms of human sexuality the greater the risk becomes that you attract the ire of fundamentalists. Particularly if you get popular or socially influential.

People have very strong opinions on the amount of control they feel they should exert over a developer's vision if they're pledging to a game. As a budding dev group, for us this is both illuminating and horrifying. It's incredibly difficult to produce any game, let alone something other people will value enough to play. Things become even more difficult when one adds patronage to the equation... and then on top of it there's always the expectation and pressure to modify one's vision on the fly to suit patrons' wishes, all while keeping up a steady output of quality content.

This isn't meant to be an indictment of anyone's preferences or wishes, but merely an observation; it's obvious why so many amateur porn games end up abandoned, or flat-out failing. There's just an ungodly amount of pins to juggle at the same time... And that's all without getting into more esoteric questions like the quality of the game content itself.
I have a pretty strict policy of non-interference when it comes to my patronage. I quietly push dollars in the direction of devs I support, and I simply pass over the others generally in silence. The projects I adore I will send play test reports in and do bug reports on.

What I stipulate here is just to inform about my policy; I don't like making normative statements or demands. I know from first hand experience how damaging to creative process that is. If you want to get my dollars and my labor then there are some conditions your project has to meet. If the project doesn't meet those conditions or does but ceases to as some point in it then I withdraw my support; I might give warning before I do so, but often, it will be quiet by my standards, and if I am giving warning then the people who don't provide feedback are likely ghosting in higher numbers.

there's always the expectation and pressure to modify one's vision on the fly to suit patrons' wishes, all while keeping up a steady output of quality content.
This often wrecks projects. The more you compromise the vision of a game and particularly the process of development to bend to the will of a vocal minority the more you risk the entire project. There is wisdom in listening to and adapting feedback in service of the vision and the process, but appeal to short term material support by vocal patrons does not necessarily translate to sustainability, profitability, or general support.

This is where a lot of projects get lost in the weeds. They have some number of initial followers that are often passionate or at least very vocal. The immediate success of the project can often depend on these people spreading the word and recruiting new patrons. Supporters from the beginning of the project can get very possessive about it and express entitlement about it. When devs cater to their whims over the interests of future supporters and players, they can cut themselves off from more general communities resulting in a progressively more stunted project.

You see this a lot in the adult game dev community. Where a proof-of-concept will be turned into a production model at the urging of the initial supporters which backs the devs into an untenable and unsatisfiable condition where they need to abandon the tech demo that got them the initial support in favor of migrating to engines better suited to their needs or to accommodate artists and other devs that have been brought on. This often results in a game which is built on layers and layers of successive mistakes that can't be fundamentally reconciled without doing something that would set the initial supporters on equal footing with new and future supporters and risk alienating them. Especially when the initial content promises are for things which can not be marketed like sexual child abuse imagery, desecration of corpses, or other things which are illegal or criminalized within the dev's jurisdiction or the jurisdiction of Patreon or Paypal or credit processors or publishers or any of the many intellectual property right agreements the devs are bound by.

The community at some point must reckon with notions of ownership, entitlement, and notions of consumer rights. Patronage is not stockownership of a corporation; patrons do not own the rights of the production or products. Patrons are not buying the product as they would do on say Steam for instance. There is a distinct difference between handing the Steam market 60$ for a game versus spending 60$ on a patreon project. There's an even larger difference between that and handing a corporation like Microsoft or EA 60$ in exchange for some portion of ownership of the company and voting rights on the board of directors.

Patrons must remember that they are not buying their way onto the dev team; the patrons are not buying employees and they are not managers, and the dev teams need to be very careful to be explicitly clear about these boundaries with themselves and with their patrons and beyond.
 
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