Eternal Grind

Dparx

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to start with , i get it that for some events to unlock within a game you need some experience.
do an action/learn something a few times to unlock it for the next step in a game.
and i love that within a game
but with a few games its just too annoying.
if you look at BB its a grind every day.
first bust older sister smoking, the massages, homework for younger etc etc etc and the list goes on.
later on do the massages and shower with mom,homework and the show with older sis i could go on a while :p
if you are at day 200 + ... it wears you out, an automated option to skip all those nonsense ?
atleast with M.o.t.h. it changes a bit, different clients at the pizza job and gym.
and to get to a day where you can do something that actually gives any progress in the story can take a while.. ( skipping days )

( just venting,and hopefully give Devs and idea to work with ? )
any feedback is welcome ofc .

P.s. talking about BB...
FFS why dont they have a dishwasher :p
 

xןʞ

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I don't have a dishwasher. :FeelsBadMan:

Actually never used one in my life now that I think about it.
 

DarthSeduction

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to start with , i get it that for some events to unlock within a game you need some experience.
do an action/learn something a few times to unlock it for the next step in a game.
and i love that within a game
but with a few games its just too annoying.
if you look at BB its a grind every day.
first bust older sister smoking, the massages, homework for younger etc etc etc and the list goes on.
later on do the massages and shower with mom,homework and the show with older sis i could go on a while :p
if you are at day 200 + ... it wears you out, an automated option to skip all those nonsense ?
atleast with M.o.t.h. it changes a bit, different clients at the pizza job and gym.
and to get to a day where you can do something that actually gives any progress in the story can take a while.. ( skipping days )

( just venting,and hopefully give Devs and idea to work with ? )
any feedback is welcome ofc .

P.s. talking about BB...
FFS why dont they have a dishwasher :p

Coming from a writer, here is what you as a player need to know. Grind is the result of a developer not being able to write a good reason for their characters to want to have sex with one another. As a result, instead of 2 people deciding to commit a sexual act, the game makes the, usually female, characters the antagonists of the story, making the MC jump through hoops on a heroes journey to get in their pants.

Not only is this very bad storytelling, its a toxic worldview toward sex. This toxicity is most commonly present in life sims, like BB, but it's also in other more linear titles like DmD. What's really sad is the potential of both games. BB is one of the first games I saw to attempt to create an antagonist who wasn't the ladies in the game. Eric, if implemented correctly, would have made it possible for there to be a story about a person to defeat, while allowing the women in the story to choose Max. The problem was twofold. Dark Silver made Eric too powerful too soon and mad Max an unlikable little shit. DmD actually has a compelling plot, but its sooooo drawn out. Seriously, Dad and Daughter could be having vaginal sex right now and the plot would still work. Hell, it could even get more interesting, like for instance, if there was a possible storyline where Daughter had to hide a pregnancy from mom. Like seriously.

One flaw a lot of developers have is that they think "It's porn, it doesn't need a story" and that's not true. We aren't playing games with passable cg characters because we have a fetish for the uncanny valley. We are playing them because the premise of more traditional porn has become stale, and we want something with more. That doesn't mean we need a ton of exposition, and long winded explanations, though they have their place. A game like Coceter Chronicles manages to get you to accept a fantasy realm in the same day that it has no less than 15 different sexual scenes, most of them peeping or superficial, but all of them world and character building. The game isn't just walls of text either, it's mostly natural dialogue, like a conversation you might have in the real world. There is a bit of lore that you can choose to read, but it's not so much that it's overwhelming, and it creates probably one of my top 5 fantasy realms ever in any work of fiction, and I'm a huge fantasy nerd.

What games need is character development. Each character has to have a backstory that we learn through interaction with the character, and not exposition at the beginning of the game. Each character needs to have a goal that motivates them and that goal should somehow relate to the overall plot. If we take BB as an example, the plot is Max's quest to turn his family into his personal Harem. As a result each of the female characters in the game should be motivated by a similar sexual desire, something that makes it possible for Max to fulfill their needs in order to get them to fulfill his. The little sister should be the one who comes to him about learning about sex, but even this should be related to something that occurs, she can't just suddenly come to him for sex advice, she needs a reason to. It is BB where the older sister is a camwhore, right? Hello perfect opportunity to build character. See, in BB you have to wear her down to get her to use you. If DS had been a competent writer, she would have been the one who came to him. Mom's entire character would be rewritten if it were me. Instead, she'd be a nympho, and the reason she let Eric in wouldn't be that she was too weak mentally to refuse him, but because she needed the sex. But when Eric became a danger to her children or you got rid of him some other way, then she'd have a reason to turn to you. This makes her less of a weak character, and more of one who was trying to control an urge she's always had. Aunt can stay the same though, she's pretty much exactly what she should be, a good slut character is always nice.
 

Dparx

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Jan 21, 2018
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Thank you Darth for a well written reply.
i agree on BB , Eric is just to much, you hate him within seconds of the game, and there comes the grind part to get rid of him.almost forced to use a mod to make if you dont want to get stuck days on end..
and you are spot on with character development.
the more depth the easier to relate to what motivates a person.
as for DmD i think the daughter character might have been brought up too pure/innocent.
and therefor is the father taking it slow & is being supportive towards her and guids her towards being an adult/partner.
his other needs ( for now ) are easily delt with the rest of the female population he encounters in his travels
allthough if you played the latest version , things are progressing ( wont spoil incase someone has to play it ) .
 

The-real-Vastitas

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If a developer creates sandbox or uses otherwise repetitive elements the feeling to progress within the repetition should not be missed, sadly it often does. The thought process to use such repetition is easy to understand however:
1. " Dev worked for days on that scene/element and does not want the player to be done with it in 2 minutes"
2. " Dev realizes that the game would offer 5 minutes of playtime if done in linear fashion"
3. " Dev reaches enough support...nobody complaints and it is so much easier to create the feeling that this update has more to offer in terms of content that it actually has..."
4. (very unlikely) " Dev is thinking repetitive content is fun or what he does is sooo good that nobody minds seeing it over and over again..."

Personally I can only stand repetitive elements in a game if and only if I know their is variety within the repetition and I do it in order to reach point B starting from A...and yes this one is another reason I stay away from quiet a few games as life is too short for repetition of the avoidable kind.
Edit:
Eric is just too much
Gotta disagree I would loved the option to play as Eric ( better model...full grown man...a easy to understand agenda)
...and yeah I would send that twerp you play instead to military school as well even though the title would need to change that would be a game I would play...without the grind of course.
 
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Dparx

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Gotta disagree I would loved the option to play as Eric ( better model...full grown man...a easy to understand agenda)
...and yeah I would send that twerp you play instead to military school as well even though the title would need to change that would be a game I would play...without the grind of course.
now that is something i could see ( buit yes without the grind :p )
 

DarthSeduction

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Thank you Darth for a well written reply.
i agree on BB , Eric is just to much, you hate him within seconds of the game, and there comes the grind part to get rid of him.almost forced to use a mod to make if you dont want to get stuck days on end..
and you are spot on with character development.
the more depth the easier to relate to what motivates a person.
as for DmD i think the daughter character might have been brought up too pure/innocent.
and therefor is the father taking it slow & is being supportive towards her and guids her towards being an adult/partner.
his other needs ( for now ) are easily delt with the rest of the female population he encounters in his travels
allthough if you played the latest version , things are progressing ( wont spoil incase someone has to play it ) .
I absolutely agree with your assessment, however she also skews as being a lot younger than the 18 she's purported to be. If I'm honest because of his writing I can't see her as older than 13-14 and that's only if I ignore how dumb she is around men in the first week, otherwise she has the mentality of a much younger girl. I, myself grew up in a very sheltered family, learning about sex more because I went through puberty as a geek in the 2000s than because my upbringing was honest about sex. Hell, when I was 12 I still thought sex was somehow related to kissing naked, had no clue about penetration. So I can see how someone would be so sheltered, but there's no way she goes to high school and is Elena's best friend but is that innocent.
 

DarthSeduction

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If a developer creates sandbox or uses otherwise repetitive elements the feeling to progress within the repetition should not be missed, sadly it often does. The thought process to use such repetition is easy to understand however:
1. " Dev worked for days on that scene/element and does not want the player to be done with it in 2 minutes"
2. " Dev realizes that the game would offer 5 minutes of playtime if done in linear fashion"
3. " Dev reaches enough support...nobody complaints and it is so much easier to create the feeling that this update has more to offer in terms of content that it actually has..."
4. (very unlikely) " Dev is thinking repetitive content is fun or what he does is sooo good that nobody minds seeing it over and over again..."

Personally I can only stand repetitive elements in a game if and only if I know their is variety within the repetition and I do it in order to reach point B starting from A...and yes this one is another reason I stay away from quiet a few games as life is too short for repetition of the avoidable kind.
Edit:

Gotta disagree I would loved the option to play as Eric ( better model...full grown man...a easy to understand agenda)
...and yeah I would send that twerp you play instead to military school as well even though the title would need to change that would be a game I would play...without the grind of course.
The Title was always a play on words anyways. What made you Big Brother wasn't the fact that you were a brother (I mean, you're alice's little brother) but that you're setting up spy cameras around the house. Eric could totally have fulfilled that role. That said, I have problems with Max personally, but I never cared that he was young anymore than I care that D in DmD can't possibly be older than 13. I personally know that it's completely normal for an adult to see a pubescant teen sexually. It's hormones and whatnot. Social stigma is the only reason we treat them as innocents these days. So if you wanna tell me a story of consenting teens in sexual situations, I can accept that it's a fiction and get off just fine.

To your other point, the only one that makes sense is the "Oh I'm making money so I guess it doesn't matter." Writing and character development would create more time with it. I just played through the most recent release of Sisterly Lust. It's not long. Just 2 ingame days, and even if you get all the content out of it, you're not even getting an hour, however the character development and couple of good scenes make it a good experience. I'd take less than an hour of good content over 2 hours of grind any day.
 
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anne O'nymous

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If a developer creates sandbox or uses otherwise repetitive elements the feeling to progress within the repetition should not be missed, sadly it often does.
Yeah, mostly because they always use the same dialog lines. There's too many games where you slowly corrupt a character, which isn't necessarily bad writing, but where you're also stuck with the default lines.
You're here, you'd sex with [whatever female character], and you're trying to reach the anal step... Alright, you'll not succeed at the first try, I can understand this and I can still have pleasure to play a game where you need to try hard to achieve this. But why should the said character still say, "what ? Are you crazy ? I'll never do this", when I ask her to remove her top ?
It's not this difficult to do, they already test if you've the right score to perform the action. All they need is to add another test to change the line according to the progression. I don't even ask for a randomization of the dialog (which would remove even more the grinding effect), just that the character don't look like a brainless girl who don't know at all what she want.
 

DarthSeduction

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Yeah, mostly because they always use the same dialog lines. There's too many games where you slowly corrupt a character, which isn't necessarily bad writing, but where you're also stuck with the default lines.
You're here, you'd sex with [whatever female character], and you're trying to reach the anal step... Alright, you'll not succeed at the first try, I can understand this and I can still have pleasure to play a game where you need to try hard to achieve this. But why should the said character still say, "what ? Are you crazy ? I'll never do this", when I ask her to remove her top ?
It's not this difficult to do, they already test if you've the right score to perform the action. All they need is to add another test to change the line according to the progression. I don't even ask for a randomization of the dialog (which would remove even more the grinding effect), just that the character don't look like a brainless girl who don't know at all what she want.
Adult game designers really can't write realistic women. This is something I find myself saying often. Don't get me wrong, I have my favorite games that do a great job of writing women, in fact at least 3 of my top 5 are female protagonist, but they are the exceptions not the rule. So many of these developers write girls who are basic cardboard cutouts who don't exist in reality, the perfectly wholesome ice queen, and the turboslut.

First we'll look at the Turboslut. In reality, that person is using sex as a mask. The best examples of this I've seen in games are Karen, and Jessica, from Dual Family and Good Girl Gone Bad respectively. Both are portrayed as turbosluts but both are revealed to actually be very troubled characters using sex as an escape, and sexuality as a mask for their inner trauma. Most games however just add a character like Elena (DmD), or the Aunt from BB, and pretend that this is a fully realized character.

Then you have the more common and frustrating one, the wholesome Ice Queen. Now, this character isn't completely nonexistent in reality... they simply aren't a good character. Unless your game is a sexual assault/date rape simulator, like BB is, you don't want that character. Don't get me wrong, I know the urge to want to corrupt the innocent thing. But you don't want the one who's a nutjob, you want the one who's just a sweetie. Literally, take your pick of girls who fit the ice queen trope, Lisa, Alice, and your mom from BB all fit it to some degree. You want to do this corruption route correctly you don't want any of them. You want the neighbor's daughter in My Sweet Neighbor, you want your own daughter in Parental Love, you want Alice from Dreams of Desire. Each of those characters are wholesome and in need of corruption, but none of them are fucking nutjobs. And you can totally put that character in a life sim, her name is Mia, and she's the little sister in View of Family.

What separates the nutjob from the innocent girl is sexuality. The innocent girl may be wholesome, but she's not without an inherent sexuality. A good example of this would be both of the older sisters in SIsterly Lust. The oldest one is the "I want to wait for marriage" girl. Literally. However you take her out for dinner and she's sweet, and she even kisses you. In the most recent update
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The other sister comes off as the ice queen at first, but you learn quickly there is a good reason for that, she's being blackmailed by some guy she sent dirty pictures to.
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Those are example of characters who are reluctant to have relations written well. They aren't completely without sexuality. They don't freak the fuck out at being touched or kissing. Seriously, the only characters who can get away with that are the ones that are meant to be in middle school, like the daughter from DmD.

I'm ranting, but goddamn I hate all these shitty characters.
 

anne O'nymous

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Most games however just add a character like Elena (DmD), or the Aunt from BB, and pretend that this is a fully realized character
Characters like this exist only for the pledges, and it's the community fault. How many, "no sex ? Well, I don't care of this game, I'll try in few months". So creators add a sex addict, to provide the adult content, time for the story to grow at its own pace. Elena isn't the worse, she play a real role in the story, but she could have done it without being a total slut. Except that if she wasn't a total slut, how many people would have supported DmD at its early stage ? Probably not so much.


Don't get me wrong, I know the urge to want to corrupt the innocent thing.
For me they aren't even innocent things. They look more like the woman next door who pass half of her time on her knees... but at the church. Like you said, the only thing you can achieve with them in real life is mostly to rape them.
In real life you can find women who are like this because they repress their sexual urges. But they don't speak and act like they do in games. You don't slowly corrupt them, you search for their trigger, and when you finally find it, you turn them into sex addict in almost no time. It they don't already have it deep inside their mind, no need to corrupt them, you'll mostly not achieve it in real life.


Literally, take your pick of girls who fit the ice queen trope, Lisa, Alice, and your mom from BB all fit it to some degree.
For me, the mom in BB is at another level. She like sex as much as any other woman, and she's an ice queen only in regard of her children. She's a strict mother, and still a normal woman, which make sense... Or at least it make sense until the moment she start to be corrupted by her son.
It's not uncommon regarding alone mothers, but there's a strong boundary in their mind. They are a woman only outside of their house, but at home they are a mother and just a mother. So, they can be a real slut outside of their house, but will never ever have sex at their own home, and even more never ever do it with their own child.
The mothers who can, possibly, be corrupted by their own child aren't this strict at home. Either they openly show their affection, or repress their sexual needs and act with some distance, but still are fully open-minded ; they need to repress themselves, so they also want their children to fully enjoy their life.
One thing which isn't well rendered is the mother sacrifice. I found it only in , when the mother, who already failed on the corruption's side, acted ready to accept everything and act like her son's personal whore, if it can help him and in the same time protect his sisters.


You want to do this corruption route correctly you don't want any of them. You want the neighbor's daughter in My Sweet Neighbor, you want your own daughter in Parental Love, you want Alice from Dreams of Desire. Each of those characters are wholesome and in need of corruption, but none of them are fucking nutjobs.
For me, the default in nowadays corruption game is their definition of corruption. They are more on the side of coercion, mixed with mind breaking and brainwashing. Corruption is more a release than a forced act.
Deep inside them, it's what the targets want, the player just remove the taboo/moral obstacles who prevent them to act as they desire. Then the player can go further, slowly pushing the limits. But, by example, a character who isn't, secretly or not, already submissive can't be corrupted to submission ; you can force it, but it's not corruption anymore, it's rape, and she'll never really like it.
And it's were most of the games failed. We should see the already present submission in the behavior of the character. A (secretly or not) submissive mother inadvertently groped by her son react with a faked anger, not with a real one. She don't want it, she don't like it, but she also haven't the personality to oppose to it, while in the same time she try to impose her authority as mother.


What separates the nutjob from the innocent girl is sexuality. The innocent girl may be wholesome, but she's not without an inherent sexuality. A good example of this would be both of the older sisters in SIsterly Lust.
In a way, the said older sisters is partly what I talked about above. For some reason (probably her parents divorce, after all she's the oldest, the one who've understood it the most) she repressed her sexuality and act as a prude girl. But if you find the right trigger, you can make her stop this repression and act more freely.


The other sister comes off as the ice queen at first, but you learn quickly there is a good reason for that, she's being blackmailed by some guy she sent dirty pictures to.
The problem isn't that she's blackmailed, but more the second spoiler.
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This game is a good example. The dialog writing isn't exceptional, but each character have it's own personality which is correctly depicted, both in what they say and how they act. Even the two, "please support my game", characters have their own personalities. They are free whores, but not the same kind of whore and despite their assertive personalities, they stay credible.
 

DarthSeduction

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Characters like this exist only for the pledges, and it's the community fault. How many, "no sex ? Well, I don't care of this game, I'll try in few months". So creators add a sex addict, to provide the adult content, time for the story to grow at its own pace. Elena isn't the worse, she play a real role in the story, but she could have done it without being a total slut. Except that if she wasn't a total slut, how many people would have supported DmD at its early stage ? Probably not so much.




For me they aren't even innocent things. They look more like the woman next door who pass half of her time on her knees... but at the church. Like you said, the only thing you can achieve with them in real life is mostly to rape them.
In real life you can find women who are like this because they repress their sexual urges. But they don't speak and act like they do in games. You don't slowly corrupt them, you search for their trigger, and when you finally find it, you turn them into sex addict in almost no time. It they don't already have it deep inside their mind, no need to corrupt them, you'll mostly not achieve it in real life.




For me, the mom in BB is at another level. She like sex as much as any other woman, and she's an ice queen only in regard of her children. She's a strict mother, and still a normal woman, which make sense... Or at least it make sense until the moment she start to be corrupted by her son.
It's not uncommon regarding alone mothers, but there's a strong boundary in their mind. They are a woman only outside of their house, but at home they are a mother and just a mother. So, they can be a real slut outside of their house, but will never ever have sex at their own home, and even more never ever do it with their own child.
The mothers who can, possibly, be corrupted by their own child aren't this strict at home. Either they openly show their affection, or repress their sexual needs and act with some distance, but still are fully open-minded ; they need to repress themselves, so they also want their children to fully enjoy their life.
One thing which isn't well rendered is the mother sacrifice. I found it only in , when the mother, who already failed on the corruption's side, acted ready to accept everything and act like her son's personal whore, if it can help him and in the same time protect his sisters.




For me, the default in nowadays corruption game is their definition of corruption. They are more on the side of coercion, mixed with mind breaking and brainwashing. Corruption is more a release than a forced act.
Deep inside them, it's what the targets want, the player just remove the taboo/moral obstacles who prevent them to act as they desire. Then the player can go further, slowly pushing the limits. But, by example, a character who isn't, secretly or not, already submissive can't be corrupted to submission ; you can force it, but it's not corruption anymore, it's rape, and she'll never really like it.
And it's were most of the games failed. We should see the already present submission in the behavior of the character. A (secretly or not) submissive mother inadvertently groped by her son react with a faked anger, not with a real one. She don't want it, she don't like it, but she also haven't the personality to oppose to it, while in the same time she try to impose her authority as mother.




In a way, the said older sisters is partly what I talked about above. For some reason (probably her parents divorce, after all she's the oldest, the one who've understood it the most) she repressed her sexuality and act as a prude girl. But if you find the right trigger, you can make her stop this repression and act more freely.




The problem isn't that she's blackmailed, but more the second spoiler.
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This game is a good example. The dialog writing isn't exceptional, but each character have it's own personality which is correctly depicted, both in what they say and how they act. Even the two, "please support my game", characters have their own personalities. They are free whores, but not the same kind of whore and despite their assertive personalities, they stay credible.
I'm so glad you agree about the little sister's slut friends. Seriously that's Elena done right. You don't interact with either of them enough to know much about them and so it's not just that they're complete sluts, its that you're just that attractive. In fact, I kinda assume you must be hella good looking, because it's not just them, but Riley as well, and then what your sister tells you in the scene at the bar shows it to be true. Also, the fact that the Asian one is a masochistic sub makes her infinitely more interesting than just "generic slut".
 

anne O'nymous

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Also, the fact that the Asian one is a masochistic sub makes her infinitely more interesting than just "generic slut".
As well as it justify her behavior. The MC is still young but also an adult, so better that the childish teenagers she know, and as an adult he can act more dominantly. On top of this, it's her best friend brother, so she can be near to him without suspicion and he's trustworthy. He's the perfect match and she would have been crazy to not risk it.
It wouldn't have work if it was Riley by example. She's grateful because the MC saved her from Brody, and he's a good trustworthy guy since he took a job just to ensure that his sister date the right guy. So, having casual sex with him, why not. But she's too old to submit to an almost unknown guy, while the Asian friend is still young enough to not care about this.
 
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Dparx

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Riley by example. She's grateful because the MC saved her from Brody, and he's a good trustworthy guy since he took a job just to ensure that his sister date the right guy. So, having casual sex with him, why not.
i could'nt agree more .
its not "omg hi im your new co-worker lets fall in love and bang" .
its casual sex, they had a common goal,and the MC didnt act like a p.o.s. going after her, she innitiated it.
who knows in the long run ,or whatever the artist has planned for the future .
 
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