Allowing player to gender select protagonist, but split into two separate games? Yay, nay?

[Northern_Blade]

I've spent the last few months writing an upcoming visual novel. It's female protagonist, but I really want the player to be able to choose the gender. I realized you can't just gender-swap: the dynamic of many scenes break, or worse go from funny to gropey. In editing the script, so many scenes were touched up, edited, added or removed altogether that it really feels like two parallel games.

Would it be a good idea to release them as two separate games with different names? (Any patreon members of one will recieve early updates for both). My decision is fueled mainly by market research: where for some reason adding a gender toggle to the game puts a -25% on its appeal. Also, I want to dissasociate the two games from eacho ther. Picking one game is not just a gender swap of the other, but gives you ~35-50% different scenes, dialgoue, and entirely new love interests.

Apart from more work, is there a major downside to this approach? Thanks for your feedback.

 

[Deleted member 2595272]

To be honest I don't play with female main characters in adult games.
But if you want to create female main character that much just do it.

I don't really understand why are you bothering gender option if it's not suitable for your project.

 

[M1tch3l]

in Heavy Five you can pick your gender. And I'm pretty sure the game is the same for both genders. (Not entirely sure since I have only played the first 2 chapter because the rest is being remade)
Maybe play it to see if they found a way around some of your problems

 

[Northern_Blade]

I don't really understand why are you bothering gender option if it's not suitable for your project.

Actually, exactly for players like you lol.

I would say the game works equally well with male or female protagonist. But alot of players will rule out a game if it has female protagonist.

That's why I am considering releasing two games. From your perspective, you'll see one game: male protagonist, crafted with male POV in mind. I'm not hiding that there's a sibling game which shares 65% of the story with a mirror female protgognist, but it's not front and center.

Once again, just want to emphasis the game works equally well with male or female protagonist. And it's not just a gender swap. Alot of work had to go into reworking scenes, dynamics, and adding or removing entire love interests to deliver a different experience. I'm hoping the payoff is about twice the reach from the two games combined.

 

[Northern_Blade]

in Heavy Five you can pick your gender. And I'm pretty sure the game is the same for both genders. (Not entirely sure since I have only played the first 2 chapter because the rest is being remade)
Maybe play it to see if they found a way around some of your problems

Thanks alot, I'll check it out!

 

[Living In A Lewd World]

Actually, exactly for players like you lol.

I would say the game works equally well with male or female protagonist. But alot of players will rule out a game if it has female protagonist.

That's why I am considering releasing two games. From your perspective, you'll see one game: male protagonist, crafted with male POV in mind. I'm not hiding that there's a sibling game which shares 65% of the story with a mirror female protgognist, but it's not front and center.

Once again, just want to emphasis the game works equally well with male or female protagonist. And it's not just a gender swap. Alot of work had to go into reworking scenes, dynamics, and adding or removing entire love interests to deliver a different experience. I'm hoping the payoff is about twice the reach from the two games combined.

I doubt, you will get double pay off. Male MC games might have in average a higher pay off, but this is not because of the gender alone, but rather because of the whole feeling those high-pay-off-games convey. Just a gender swap with 35 - 50% same story might not be sufficient to catch those people.

Alone that both games will have longer development times til they come to the "good parts", will probably rather put off people from supporting you, than if you just decide for one gender and give the best you can. There are also lots of examples for female MC-games with a good financial pay-off, e.g.: "Good girls gone bad", "A wife and mother", "Karryn's prison", "Start knightess Aura" and "Project Myriam".

And finally, for creating an adult game, you need rather a lot of passion than an expectation of a (financial) pay off. Only few developer will ever earn > 1000 $ a month for the games they produce and this only after a year or two after the first release, the same which gender you choose for your MC. Some may never raise more than 200 or 300 $ a month.

 

[Northern_Blade]

I doubt, you will get double pay off. Male MC games might have in average a higher pay off, but this is not because of the gender alone, but rather because of the whole feeling those high-pay-off-games convey. Just a gender swap with 35 - 50% same story might not be sufficient to catch those people.

Alone that both games will have longer development times til they come to the "good parts", will probably rather put off people from supporting you, than if you just decide for one gender and give the best you can. There are also lots of examples for female MC-games with a good financial pay-off, e.g.: "Good girls gone bad", "A wife and mother", "Karryn's prison", "Start knightess Aura" and "Project Myriam".

And finally, for creating an adult game, you need rather a lot of passion than an expectation of a (financial) pay off. Only few developer will ever earn > 1000 $ a month for the games they produce and this only after a year or two after the first release, the same which gender you choose for your MC. Some may never raise more than 200 or 300 $ a month.

Thanks for your feedback, longer development time is indeed something I need to consider more carefully.

I'm not entirely sure I understand what you mean by: "male MC games make more on average not because of the gender alone, but because of the whole feeling those high-pay-off-games convey"
Could you elaborate on what "high-pay-off games convey" is?

 

[Living In A Lewd World]

Thanks for your feedback, longer development time is indeed something I need to consider more carefully.

I'm not entirely sure I understand what you mean by: "male MC games make more on average not because of the gender alone, but because of the whole feeling those high-pay-off-games convey"
Could you elaborate on what "high-pay-off games convey" is?

Most successful male-MC games work as a power-fantasies. Exaggerated: You play as a male MC, that can for whatever reason (charme, intelligence, big penis,...) get any girl in the game he wants. They will only have eyes for the MC (or the MC and other females). Any male concurrence is only there for comic relief. Having only one girl looking at another man or speaking positive about another man can produce the feeling of jealousy and thus an NTR-discussion. If you mix the tags NTR and Harem in your game, you even might get death threats (not joking, see: https://f95zone.to/threads/rising-bliss-v1-0-0-studio-mystic.105635/post-10533996). Not saying, that you can't have success with a Male-MC game, that contains NTR (see Sexbot), but the chance to hit the right spot is lower and it should always be avoidable.

Alternatively, just wondered what you think about completing the female MC version 100% through, then going back and re-working and releasing the Male MC version. It seems like that would mitigate the slower release times.

The question is, how long it will even take you to complete the female MC version, and if you will then still be interested to produce the male MC-version or not just go over to another game, as you already have many new ideas, you want to realise. Or if you will even still want to produce a game, as you may realise, that the effort you invest (time, potentially money and nerves) don't make up for the rewards (money and/or appreciation). And finally, will the audience you got even be interested to see you developing the same game with a male MC?

 

[Northern_Blade]

Most successful male-MC games work as a power-fantasies. Exaggerated: You play as a male MC, that can for whatever reason (charme, intelligence, big penis,...) get any girl in the game he wants. They will only have eyes for the MC (or the MC and other females). Any male concurrence is only there for comic relief. Having only one girl looking at another man or speaking positive about another man can produce the feeling of jealousy and thus an NTR-discussion. If you mix the tags NTR and Harem in your game, you even might get death threats (not joking, see: https://f95zone.to/threads/rising-bliss-v1-0-0-studio-mystic.105635/post-10533996). Not saying, that you can't have success with a Male-MC game, that contains NTR (see Sexbot), but the chance to hit the right spot is lower and it should always be avoidable.



The question is, how long it will even take you to complete the female MC version, and if you will then still be interested to produce the male MC-version or not just go over to another game, as you already have many new ideas, you want to realise. Or if you will even still want to produce a game, as you may realise, that the effort you invest (time, potentially money and nerves) don't make up for the rewards (money and/or appreciation). And finally, will the audience you got even be interested to see you developing the same game with a male MC?

Ah okay, thank you for explaining. Actually my game doesn't include NTR for the male version. That was one of the 35 - 50% rework: scenes were completely rewritten, and some male characters in the female MC version swap to become females and dateable in the male MC version.

It's the reason I wanted two seperate games: the female MC focuses on slow burn (mostly monogamous) lesbian romances; whereas the male MC is more about a battle shonen while collecting a harem. Even if the two take place in the same universe and share some similar story beats, I think they really deliver very different experiences taken as a whole.

Anyhow, I've never had someone lay it out so clearly the appeal of mainstream male MC AVN. I was just doing it from an intuitive level, but thanks for laying it out like that.

---------

Your point on return seems valid. Who knows how I'll feel, years down the line when the female MC version is finished. It's funny, because while I love a good AVN, one of the reasons I started this genre was because it seemed to have higher average returns than normal indie games. I know many devs who spent years on a passion game project to have it played by 200 people. At least for AVNs, it seems you'll likely get at least a few thousand players. And it seems many do end up making about 100 to 500 a month through subscription, which is significantly more than the average 1000 lifetime earnings of an indie game on steam.

With that said, thanks for your perspective. I am not in this for the money. Game dev and story telling are passions of mine. But reach and money is also not a non-factor

 

[Living In A Lewd World]

Ah okay, thank you for explaining. Actually my game doesn't include NTR for the male version. That was one of the 35 - 50% rework: scenes were completely rewritten, and some male characters in the female MC version swap to become females and dateable in the male MC version.

It's the reason I wanted two seperate games with different names: the female MC focuses on slow burn (mostly monogamous) lesbian romances; whereas the male MC is more about a battle shonen while collecting a harem. Even if the two take place in the same universe and share some similar story beats, I think they really deliver very different experiences taken as a whole.

Anyhow, I've never had someone lay it out so clearly the appeal of mainstream male MC AVN. I was just doing it from an intuitive level, but thanks for laying it out like that.

Regarding Fem-MC-Games: You have (from a financial perspective) also to consider that (purely) lesbian games are seemingly not that successful, even when well written as games, where the fem-MC prefers the male or both genders. They may exist, but I don't remember one yet, which may make more than 1000$ a month. And it may also depend on what you take for producing renders (I actually know only ones that are made with HS1 or 2).
My personal favourite in this regard is: "Sunville". Further purely lesbian games are: "Yuri university" and "Missy". On the other hand, if you consider to make a mainly lesbian game, you should consider to make at least a purely lesbian path, as there is also a "no-dick" fraction among the lesbian-game-lovers, that might otherwise not even look at your game.

EDIT: "Dog Days of Summer" and "Mother Lovers Society" were lesbian games made with another graphic engine. But they have not been updated for a year. Not sure, how much supporters those games may have had, when they were still regular updated.

 

[Northern_Blade]

Regarding Fem-MC-Games: You have (from a financial perspective) also to consider that (purely) lesbian games are seemingly not that successful, even when well written as games, where the fem-MC prefers the male or both genders. They may exist, but I haven't seen one yet. And it may also depend on what you take for producing renders (I actually know only ones that are made with HS1 or 2).
My personal favourite in this regard is: "Sunville". Further purely lesbian games are: "Yuri university" and "Missy". On the other hand, if you consider to make a mainly lesbian game, you should consider to make at least a purely lesbian path, as there is also a "no-dick" fraction among the lesbian-game-lovers, that might otherwise not even look at your game.

Damn, I think you just put to word what I've been mulling over the last few days. i've been debating gender swapping a few characters so there's a choice of lesbian andstraight relationship; but this gave me the push in that direction. (it'll be much easier to have a "no-dick" option at game start to not gender swap those as that's the default right now).
I'll take a look at those games you've mentioned. Thanks! The game I had in mind as a sort of role model was "Say it again"...which is quite well written imo but has very little public reception.

Thanks for your perspective.

 

[anne O'nymous]

In editing the script, so many scenes were touched up, edited, added or removed altogether that it really feels like two parallel games.

I'm tempted to say that then you are doing it wrong.
Of course, characters wouldn't react in the same way to a male or female MC, and the MC himself/herself wouldn't always act the same ; A female MC that decide to go topless imply lubricity, while it would be more innocent for a male MC, and the witness wouldn't react in the same way.
But if it come to the point where it would lead to two radically different scenes, then the lewd is way too present in the story.

Would it be a good idea to release them as two separate games with different names?

I can only talk for me, but I would just pass. If you can't deal with an issue that is in the end relatively easy whatever the game engine, then the game have probably nothing that will be interesting for me.

in Heavy Five you can pick your gender. And I'm pretty sure the game is the same for both genders.

It is, but in the same time isn't. The dev too often rely on different labels to handle the variation between male and female scenes, while she could do it in a better way than need less work.

A game that handle it relatively well is Bad Memories. It's not the only one, but it's probably the most easy to understand in terms of code.
And of course there's also a (raw) how-to somewhere...

 

[nulnil]

I think it would be better if you just stuck with one game that only has a female protagonist. A male protagonist in a story written for a female one would feel off, even if you adjust dialogue and scenes. People playing a male protagonist game expect certain elements and themes that may not be present, and adding those may make that version too different from the original.

 

[Northern_Blade]

I'm tempted to say that then you are doing it wrong.
Of course, characters wouldn't react in the same way to a male or female MC, and the MC himself/herself wouldn't always act the same ; A female MC that decide to go topless imply lubricity, while it would be more innocent for a male MC, and the witness wouldn't react in the same way.
But if it come to the point where it would lead to two radically different scenes, then the lewd is way too present in the story.

So the majority of the rework is not in the adult scenes themselves, but in the different direction the game takes. I was saying this to lewdworld earlier, but the female MC version focuses on slow-burn lesbian romance, with a slight horror/detective vibe. Whereas the male MC version focuses more on a battle shonen with harem.

Of course I could've just swapped the gender, edited a few scenes such as your shirt example (and the lewd scenes), and called it a day. But I really wanted to refocus the game experience based on the gender and what i understand the general player base of female MC vs male MC generally enjoy. I wanted however to validate this approach. (And based on the feedback, seems focusing on female MC exclusively for now is wise. Too much juggling both at the same time)

Thanks for your comment btw.

I can only talk for me, but I would just pass. If you can't deal with an issue that is in the end relatively easy whatever the game engine, then the game have probably nothing that will be interesting for me.

Certainly your perogative lol. I'm coding a Ren'py like engine from scratch, set up a custom graphic pipeline, and spent months just refining the script and dialogue. I may be biased, but I feel I have something interesting and innovative here both in story-telling and actual gameplay mechanics. I kindly ask you judge the game based on the game Not my silly questions here.

 

[Northern_Blade]

I think it would be better if you just stuck with one game that only has a female protagonist. A male protagonist in a story written for a female one would feel off, even if you adjust dialogue and scenes. People playing a male protagonist game expect certain elements and themes that may not be present, and adding those may make that version too different from the original.

Very fair point!

 

[anne O'nymous]

So the majority of the rework is not in the adult scenes themselves, but in the different direction the game takes.

Then my "your doing it wrong" stand even more. If the game is taking different direction depending on MC's gender, then you are telling two different stories.

I was saying this to lewdworld earlier, but the female MC version focuses on slow-burn lesbian romance, with a slight horror/detective vibe. Whereas the male MC version focuses more on a battle shonen with harem.

What are clearly not just two different stories, but also two different games. And, strictly speaking, there's no reason for this.
Not that your second game is a bad idea, but it's a second game, not the same game with a MC that have a different gender. What mean that you're harming both by trying to present them as a variation on the same theme. Someone who wouldn't like the Female MC one after having tried it, would never try the Male MC one, yet like it tell something different it's possible that he could like it.

But I really wanted to refocus the game experience based on the gender and what i understand the general player base of female MC vs male MC generally enjoy.

What is not "allowing the player to gender select protagonist", but "writing two different games that take place in the same universe and involve the same secondary characters".
If you want, it's like Tolkien saying that you can choose to have a MC that is still young and a bit adventurous, or a MC that is more mature and slacker, then presenting you "The Lord of the Rings" and "The Hobbit". Unlike what the choice gave in the MC make you think, they are clearly two different books.

[...] set up a custom graphic pipeline [...]

And, by curiosity, what was wrong with the fully dynamic way Ren'Py currently handle the graphic part ?
Between the ConditionSwitch, Composite, DynamicDisplayable and ShowingSwitch displayables, without counting the now twice useless DynamicImage one, the layered images, the expression keyword and of course the Animation and Transform Language, I really wonder what someone would want more.

I may be biased, but I feel I have something interesting and innovative here both in story-telling and actual gameplay mechanics.

Oh god...
I'm far from telling that your game will be bad, I know near to nothing about it and wouldn't dare to judge it, nor to judge you. But I've really read this way too often during the last six years, and even me wouldn't dare to write it.

 

[Northern_Blade]

What are clearly not just two different stories, but also two different games. And, strictly speaking, there's no reason for this.
Not that your second game is a bad idea, but it's a second game, not the same game with a MC that have a different gender. What mean that you're harming both by trying to present them as a variation on the same theme. Someone who wouldn't like the Female MC one after having tried it, would never try the Male MC one, yet like it tell something different it's possible that he could like it.

Hmm interesting perspective. Sounds like I should really push the seperation of the two games further. But anyhow, that's a mute point now. I'm focusing on the female MC now, but if I ever get around to a male MC, most likely will be a completely seperate game with a different name and no links back to the first: more of a "set in the same universe with some re-occuring characters" kind of deal.

And, by curiosity, what was wrong with the fully dynamic way Ren'Py currently handle the graphic part ?
Between the ConditionSwitch, Composite, DynamicDisplayable and ShowingSwitch displayables, without counting the now twice useless DynamicImage one, the layered images, the expression keyword and of course the Animation and Transform Language, I really wonder what someone would want more.

Oh I wasn't complaining about Ren'py's ability to handle graphics. Rather, I have some minigames and gameplay sections. I could probably rig those up in Ren'Py, but I'm much more familiar with C# and Unity. And I believe there's more flexibility for coding gameplay segments in Unity

For the graphical pipeline, I'm experimenting with combining Daz with Unreal. Okay, maybe not that custom lol. But I think Unreal has some cool features for cinematic movie making esp environments.

Oh god...
I'm far from telling that your game will be bad, I know near to nothing about it and wouldn't dare to judge it, nor to judge you. But I've really read this way too often during the last six years, and even me wouldn't dare to write it.

Indeed you are probably right. But I would be a poor developer if I wasn't a little hyped about my own project lol. I'm sure there will be many mistakes and problems ahead I will have to learn from.

 

[woody554]

the amount of rework makes it sound like your story doesn't really fit well for gender selection. but if you want to do the extra work I don't see why not. (except that one game is already enough work to make you quit.)

making two separate games? I don't see why not, except for the workload. even if they're very similar it won't probably matter for most, they'll only play the version they like anyway.

one problem though is that making same things twice will be boring for you. if you're gonna do double work, why not also get two completely different stories for it?

 

[Deleted member 2595272]

Actually, exactly for players like you lol.

Players like me not eager to play knock of male protagonist story that inspirated by female protagonist story.
If your game is not suitable for this kind of choices, just don't do that.

 

[Northern_Blade]

the amount of rework makes it sound like your story doesn't really fit well for gender selection. but if you want to do the extra work I don't see why not. (except that one game is already enough work to make you quit.)

making two separate games? I don't see why not, except for the workload. even if they're very similar it won't probably matter for most, they'll only play the version they like anyway.

one problem though is that making same things twice will be boring for you. if you're gonna do double work, why not also get two completely different stories for it?

Fair point. I was thinking it would be less work, as many assets and backgrounds won't have to be redone. So second game can re-use about 80% of the assets and scripts (even with all the differences and major changes).

But in any case, you raise a good point. I've decided not to go this route due to the potentially extremely long release cycle this would add. Thanks for your feedback.