Yeah, tell me about it. That 10 gold left over at the end mocks you. But without that early extra key, it just doesn't seem to work.
Sorry, that screenshot above is from a flawed run (ended up with like 30 HP) Ignore it and possibly the part about me not getting that last atk. I'll find the right file and correct info in a bit (wife just made breakfast).
I just had an insight while taking the correct screenshots and further optimized my run, ending with 69 HP and no birds attacked. The insight was saving 4 HP by not taking the bait on attacking 2 4dmg slimes, but instead waiting for them to do 0dmg.
Anyway it turns out that in the end you indeed do not get the last atk..
Until after killing the first Ogre..
..that get's you the final break point.
And there it is, 69 HP..
..without any birds attacked
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Anyway it turns out that in the end you indeed do not get the last atk..
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Until after killing the first Ogre..
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..that get's you the final break point.
And there it is, 69 HP..
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..without any birds attacked
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69 also seems to be the max, I can get on a 2 key path. Provided I take the attack path on the third area for the quicker 45 breakpoint of the spirits. I can't quite figure out a way to make the defensive path work as neatly. Suggesting the attack path is the better option. Or it could be an oversight on my behalf.
The viability is of course changed depending on the second level... but that's too many varibles for now. I'll give all of that a consideration on a later date.
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The viability is of course changed depending on the second level... but that's too many varibles for now. I'll give all of that a consideration on a later date.
Yeah my conclusion as well. The attack path on the third area is the superior path. So it seems that unless there is a radically different strategy to consider, we have found the optimal path ending with 69 HP. I'm pretty sure that as we ended on the same spot, we likely made all the exact same moves to get there.
As you pointed out though, you could get the defense instead and simply end with less HP. It is possible for that to be more advantageous going into the next area.. however, for reasons you may not have noticed yet (take a careful look at the offense and defense paths in the new area), I doubt getting the defense over the offense (in area 3) will prove beneficial in the long run.
I have a feeling that though the next area is going to be easier to navigate and find a solution to, optimization is going to prove more difficult as there will be many more factors to consider.
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When I cleared it yesterday, I did some scouting of that area. Know what constitutes a headache for me? Many open areas with many possibilities. The toughest part is not what is immediately better, but how everything will work in the end not only for this level but the next one again. The really crazy part is that through all of it, the defensive path from the third area of the first level may be the superior option. We'll have to see with how things work out in the second level. You noted how the defensive bonus(?)/silver gate(s) option seemed worse, but from what I recall it held more stats points.
Knowing how sadistic this game is... despite how everything looks. The optimal solution will probably be a weird mix and match of the two paths. Where the progressive higher rewards for the same cost is merely a trap to blind the player to such solutions.
I don't have the energy to go deep into the strategies of the second level today. Trying to work out all the kinks of the first level was enough for me
How you make the defensive path work is just taking the 3 red upgrades from the blue spirits a little earlier than what you'd do on the offensive path. As to meet the 45 blue spirit breakpoint for the Western area.
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No, what I meant was an agreement that the defensive path in the third area was the inferior choice. As far as the silver gate paths in the new area, I only know that both work, not which is superior.
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What I was trying to say is that the defensive side (in the NEW area) does indeed hold more stat points, which implies that when you can choose between 2 atk and 2 def in the third area, the two atk is a superior choice in the long run as the game now holds atk at a higher value than def.
I should clarify this by saying that I am 90% sure that it will NEVER be worth it to go back for the stat upgrades behind locked doors in the ogres area. So we will never be getting that 2 def we left behind in the third area. So the 2 atk vs 2 def is a permanent choice.
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Ohh I completely agree in them not being worth going back to get. The major reason we even went with one of the options was necessiated by the health potion. There is a workaround of not having to chose any of them, which nets us +2 higher in stats... but it's at the cost of a theoretical 600 hp. I don't think it's worth it.
Regarding atk vs defense. It's all about breakpoints. We have breakpoints too with our defense. As an example doubling our attack wouldn't mean all too much against the ogre's 1000hp compared to doubling our defense. We'd take 0 damage against the ogre with double defense. The opposite is those high damage, with high defense, and low health enemies. Doubling our defense would do squat, while doubling our attack could make us take a fraction of the damage. The truth will be opened to us, as we begin to uncover the proper procedure of which enemies that needs to be defeated first.
Regarding atk vs defense. It's all about breakpoints. We have breakpoints too with our defense. As an example doubling our attack wouldn't mean all too much against the ogre's 1000hp compared to doubling our defense. We'd take 0 damage against the ogre with double defense. The opposite is those high damage, with high defense, and low health enemies. Doubling our defense would do squat, while doubling our attack could make us take a fraction of the damage. The truth will be opened to us, as we begin to uncover the proper procedure of which enemies that needs to be defeated first.
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Hey. I haven't really started much on the optimization run of the next area yet, but I'll be up for it when/if you decide to continue. I did think it over a little bit though and came to a realization. We are likely not going to figure out an optimal path until we figure out both paths (offense and defense) independently and then compare them to each other. Right? So essentially we have 2 games to optimize before we can know which one is the optimal path. This however, is further complicated by the fact that there are actually 4 paths, not 2...
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Of course, I think we'd be in agreement that path 1 and 2 are the obvious superior choices and that 3 and 4 are wastes. If so, than it's still essentially 2 paths. One thing that will be discovered later on though is that access to more iron keys beyond completing one path will be available and a decision of whether to start down another path (possibly for the sole purpose of gaining another blue/silver/special key) or save the keys for other rewards will need to be made.
If memory serves, I think I did end up going down a second path in the past to gain the extra key, but I am really not sure if that decision was optimal or flawed.
I need some help. I have found a very similar game to Hero Trial and have played a bit of it. The only problem is that it's untranslated. I tried a couple of those translation programs, but I can't seem to understand how they work.
The game is called "Aria's Ero Trap Dungeon Ver.1.021"
I don't believe it's that kind of "trap" btw, just trap as in obstacle.
If anyone knows how to use translation programs and can get it translated, then we have another puzzle RPG game to solve! I'd really appreciate any help.
Oh and I could only find it through torrenting it. Most sites seem only to have the CG's in the form of a comic.
The game is called "Aria's Ero Trap Dungeon Ver.1.021"
I don't believe it's that kind of "trap" btw, just trap as in obstacle.
If anyone knows how to use translation programs and can get it translated, then we have another puzzle RPG game to solve! I'd really appreciate any help.
Oh and I could only find it through torrenting it. Most sites seem only to have the CG's in the form of a comic.
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I feel so bad about this. You grgrgr5 have been so enthusiastic and encouraging. Yet I've been radio silent and something of a jerk.
After my other message now some time ago. I found, what believe to be a better path for the first level, when considering going into the next one.
There is a way to sneak in even more attack if you don't use the Eastern key route. You'll sadly have to use one of the hearts guarded by a bird in the Western section. The extra attack is really important for the next level. Especially if you wait with the silver gates and gather some more of them to utilize in the next level. But there are so many variations of this path and how to proceed with it in regards to optimization, that I'm getting a stomachache and it makes me feel a bit dizzy.
I kept trying to get back into the game. Everytime I was stumped as I kept visualizing all the other paths of the previous level, for every move I decided to take in the next one. I also know this will only get worse, as I get to the next one. Having access to all the areas at once, makes this really jarring for me.
I might report back, should I find an optimal path in the next level. I have to admit, that it looks like the hard mode in this game has me beat.
After my other message now some time ago. I found, what believe to be a better path for the first level, when considering going into the next one.
There is a way to sneak in even more attack if you don't use the Eastern key route. You'll sadly have to use one of the hearts guarded by a bird in the Western section. The extra attack is really important for the next level. Especially if you wait with the silver gates and gather some more of them to utilize in the next level. But there are so many variations of this path and how to proceed with it in regards to optimization, that I'm getting a stomachache and it makes me feel a bit dizzy.
I kept trying to get back into the game. Everytime I was stumped as I kept visualizing all the other paths of the previous level, for every move I decided to take in the next one. I also know this will only get worse, as I get to the next one. Having access to all the areas at once, makes this really jarring for me.
I might report back, should I find an optimal path in the next level. I have to admit, that it looks like the hard mode in this game has me beat.
No worries man. I kinda figured it just became daunting and you needed a break.
I'd be very interested to hear the new path and the advantages it provides. Sounds like it saves you 1 key (2 saved, 1 used by bird to get the 2 atk) and gains 1 atk (1 lost, 2 gained by bird).
Optimizing things does seem like a monumental task with how many options are present in the next section. After my last reply, I actually did something very different. I prioritized getting health instead of getting upgrades (I went down the defense path, which I favor slightly). Instead of using the keys to go north and collect the def, I went south to collect the health which allowed me to use the [!] ecchi blocks sooner and gain their benefits. By the end of the section (or shortly after) I had cleared out the entire eastern side of the upgrade room, getting all defense upgrades. I never opened any doors on the west (atk) side. I mention this because I don't think there are 4 paths (as I described in my last reply), I think there are combination paths, meaning any 2 of the paths will be taken. In my case I took path 4 down to the key, then all of path 2, then finished path 4.
Of course if it works out, the logical path seems to be combination of 1 and 2 as that results in the highest stat gains, but that requires 2 extra silver keys.
I assume you haven't been trying to simply optimize by scratch and have beaten the game entirely so you're aware of what the future brings (like defense actually doing very little compared to atk break points on end game enemies) as well as what factors determine the score. Score being the ultimate goal of optimization I figure. To my thinking, this means that the path to optimization may well lie in choosing a combination path, making logical (if not perfect) moves, and then seeing if there are any large fluctuations from one combination path to another in final score, and ruling out any low performers. Only 3 combinations strike me as logical anyway: 1&2, 2&4, and 1&3. All others seem pointless.
Didn't mean to go into all this detail here.. once I get going I don't stop..
Anyway though, no need to rush getting back into it on my account. I think I'll always be interested in this game. If you want to further collaborate on it or just have a question or theory or breakthrough to share then just shoot me another message. I'll always be interested.
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Do you prioritize health to get faster access to the bonus behind the 6500HP wall? I had the same thoughts, when I first saw the area. The problem was for me that no matter how I did it. The lack of extra stats were more detrimental in the end. Though this was more focused on also avoiding using extra keys. All for the quicker health boost afterwards. You'll be able to get to 40 (80 total) extra gold much faster in that route for the first area. With a much less conservative key usage, you'll probably get more interesting results.
Which fights to take first is still confusing to me, as my mind is stubbornly stuck on access, saving keys, and potential. Rather than the more immediate.
Which fights to take first is still confusing to me, as my mind is stubbornly stuck on access, saving keys, and potential. Rather than the more immediate.
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You are partly right about the extra attack. The bigger difference is in also buying an attack upgrade instead of a defensive one in the shop. Combined you are reaching a lot of break points for the next area without having to rush the silver bonus gates. Enabling further optimization down the line. Like rushing the 3 silver and 1 wood gated area in lvl 2.
No, I didn't get the 6500HP wall until later on. I used the health to get the HP walls in the northern and north western sections, gaining 1 silver key and one blue(?) key. This allowed me to use the silver key to open the silver door in section 4 of the upgrade room and gain a 2nd blue key, which I then used to open the 2 blue door and 1 wood door in the main hub area (central) to obtain 3 blue keys and immediately use them for the big upgrade payoffs in the NE and SW sections. I believe I also used the 3rd blue key in the NW section, though that usage is controversial.
This strategy wasn't taken to be optimal however. I was just trying something new and it worked out quite well. I don't remember my scores over my playthroughs enough to know if this strategy gained or lost me score, but I do know that it resulted in a pretty easy progression to the end from there.
Also as part of this strategy, I did not save the silver keys in order to open the 3 silver and 1 wood gated area you mentioned as the gain of 1200HP did not seem worth the cost of 1 yellow key and the sacrifice of not getting the stats from the South upgrade area earlier by waiting. In your strategy it seems like the waiting wasn't an issue, so it was just 1 yellow key for 1200HP. Good if it helps reach a HP wall threshold, but otherwise seems like possibly a non beneficial trade as excess HP becomes the norm from here on out and keys become super valuable.
Anyway, I'll have to go back and try your buying attack/attack gain from bird/using 1 less key strategy in the ogre section. If the result is an extra key and atk or even just an extra atk with the only sacrifice being a bit of wasted healing, then it does sound like a superior strategy.
Is that hard mode? Try that if not. It is much MUCH harder. It's like an entirely different game.
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The problem (at least for me wasn't) so much completing the game. The problem was finding the optimal path. There were a headache inducing amount of variables. It's not so linear as having X amount of HP on this or that path. The given choice may yield a suboptimal score from the gold spent or the stats "wrongly" allocated or prioritized in future branching paths.
To be fair, you
But my point still stands for the guy I responded to. Hard mode is an entirely different can of worms than normal mode. Same as Lulu 1 and 2.
I get the sense you don't remember me. We've discussed the optimization thing at great length, but your response makes it sound like you're talking to a random commenter .
To be fair, you had extensive experience optimizing Lulu Farea before playing this and had a full understanding of the logic needed to solve these puzzles. And even you had trouble on the Ogre section on Hard mode (and had pointers along the way). Hard mode is definitely a challenge. Especially for those that haven't gone through a similar game before (which as we unfortunately know, similar games are rare).
But my point still stands for the guy I responded to. Hard mode is an entirely different can of worms than normal mode. Same as Lulu 1 and 2.
I get the sense you don't remember me
. We've discussed the optimization thing at great length, but your response makes it sound like you're talking to a random commenter .